UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 28th Apr 2014, 8:52 am   #101
SteveCG
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Certainly the VHF bands could have been re-jigged to provide a couple of 625 line system I TV networks. You just need to look to the analogue TV days in the Irish Republic to see that in action. Eire even had some 405 transmissions at the same time as well !
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th Apr 2014, 1:02 pm   #102
Hybrid tellies
Nonode
 
Hybrid tellies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 2,149
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Most of Europe used both VHF TV bands for 625 line colour until DSO. I still have my VHF TV dx aerials for bands 1, 2 and 3 in my loft. As they are only 15 years old they are not vintage enough to put a picture of them up here.
__________________
Simon
BVWS member
Hybrid tellies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th Apr 2014, 7:55 am   #103
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,188
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

We have a horizontal BI dipole in our loft from the ch5 and 8 days, nothing for BIII but being only 6 miles or so from the main transmitters it was often possible to receive satisfactory TTT ch8 reception from the BI aerial.

In retrospect it does seem surprising some VHF 625-line coverage in the UK wasn't considered for those difficult to serve areas such as valleys and the likes. Even if they had done, which would've meant some interesting adaptations such as a valved turret tuner inside a BRC 3000 set for example, it would've ceased following the digital switch over as we've seen across Europe in recent times.

Cheers,
Brian
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th Apr 2014, 9:51 am   #104
vidjoman
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East Sussex, UK.
Posts: 1,706
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Back in the 60's many 405 line viewers living on low ground near the river Thames at Belvedere had aerials pointed to the water towers at the Ford factory in Dagenham on the other side of the river to pick up the reflected signal as it was impossible to get the direct signal from Crystal Palace
vidjoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th Apr 2014, 4:02 pm   #105
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,188
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Spotted in Belford, Northumberland earlier today (30th April 2014). I don't think they'll be there for much longer as scaffolding has been put up below. The BIII arrays look like a stacked matched pair, yet the lower one has the addition of a BI dipole. These for the reception of BBC Pontop Pike ch5 and TTT Burnhope ch8 of course.

Cheers,
Brian
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Belford Northumberland 30-04-14.jpg
Views:	224
Size:	99.2 KB
ID:	92224   Click image for larger version

Name:	Belford Northumberland at a different angle 30-04-14.jpg
Views:	199
Size:	97.1 KB
ID:	92225  
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2014, 10:02 am   #106
SteveCG
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Re post no. 105:

The top aerial looks like a single 6 element Belling & Lee that has lost its folded dipole. The evidence for this conjecture is:

1) the close spacing of the 4 directors (typical B & L);
2) the fact that it was a 6 element design (a common B & L design - many competitors used 5 or 8);
3) the boom diameter is 3/4 inch (the design choice for all B & L Band III aerials);
4) the shape of junction box cover. If it were a B & L then this cover would be a pale blue colour made of flexible rubber.

Having said that I'm puzzled as to the lower aerial (clearly a combined BI & BIII design) which does not look like part of B & L double at all (no phasing bars for one thing). Moreover no trace of a junction box on it, and the BI element holder looking like a standard but non-dipole, element holder. Also its boom diameter is 1 inch.

Last edited by SteveCG; 1st May 2014 at 10:16 am. Reason: added information
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2014, 4:31 pm   #107
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,188
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Interesting comments Steve. With a closer look I thought the lower aerial may have been a standard combined BI "H" with 5-element BIII type, the missing dipole probably being a dual BI/III one.

It appears they added a second 6-element BIII array to improve CH8 reception, Belford is some 50miles north of the transmitters. There's evidence of what may have been a diplexer at the bottom of the mast.

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Focus Diode; 1st May 2014 at 4:44 pm.
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2014, 10:04 am   #108
SteveCG
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Brian,

Yep, a missing dual BI & BIII dipole (or perhaps just a BI dipole with the 'director' that is second from the back actually being a BIII resonator) on the lower one would explain many things!

That is, 3 BIII directors, a resonator BIII element and a Band III reflector on the same boom as a BI dipole and BI reflector.

Indeed at a distance of 50 air miles, both Pontop Pike and Burnhope would be running out of microvolts at that location. Out of interest, was the location shadowed towards the TXs ?

Last edited by SteveCG; 2nd May 2014 at 10:05 am. Reason: improved text
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2014, 1:21 pm   #109
SteveCG
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

A spectulation concerning the aerials in post no. 105:

I wonder if the original aerial was the combined one - presumably at the top of the mast. It may have been a TV rental type installation which only gave so-so ITA reception. Then later the owners changed TV (to one perhaps not so good in a fringe area) or just wanted a better ITA picture or perhaps new owners took over the property. At which point somebody moved the combined aerial down the mast, mounted the B & L at the top and, by dint of using a diplexer, just used the combined aerial for its Band I reception. If it was weak ITA reception I wonder why a B & L 9 element was not used given all the trouble of installing a new aerial? Mind you, combined aerial types were never as good on Band III as ones specifically designed for Band III, so perhaps a 6 element Band III just got over the acceptability threshold.

Who knows
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2014, 3:11 pm   #110
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,188
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Hi Steve,

The location's quite clear to the South. Interesting thoughts there. One would love to travel back to see what sets the aerials were connected to and what reception was like, if only we could....

They were no UHF aerials attached. It seems the property had become derelict as scaffolding had been put up to replace the roof tiles.

Does seem surprising in view of the distances involved that more elaborate array(s) wern't erected. The lower combined BI/III aerial is typical of installations well within the primary service area. I too think it may have been top mounted originally with the second top BIII aerial added later when they discovered CH8 wasn't too well received.

Cheers,
Brian
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2014, 11:31 pm   #111
Steve FPV
Triode
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Malvern, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 28
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Hi,

I spotted this array in the village of Wilton near Ross - on - Wye today. It looks to be in very good condition, but I've no idea which transmitter it was aimed at. The UHF antenna is pointing at Ridge Hill which is only 6.5 miles away on a bearing of about 20 degrees. That would put the bearing of the VHF set up at about 80 or 90 degrees. The cottages are right on the banks of the river Wye, so not much height advantage! Any ideas?

Thanks, Steve.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2 May 2014  TV Aerials, Wilton, Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire.jpg
Views:	216
Size:	53.4 KB
ID:	92343  
Steve FPV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2014, 7:34 am   #112
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,188
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Wow! What a great catch and in such excellent condition too. As a guess they'll probably be for Sutton Coldfield CH4 and Lichfield CH8.

Cheers,
Brian
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2014, 10:15 am   #113
SteveCG
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

RE post no. 111,

A nice centre-of-mass balanced pair, so minimising those constant torques that are just itching to bring the pair down...

The X looks to be an Antiference Antex, which if it was decently connected up is probably still useable. The 8 el Band III could be nearly anything (but not B & L, or later 'trumatch' Antiference). If the 8 el's boom is 3/4 inch diameter then a possibility for the location is a Premier Aerials (Cheltenham) design, in which case almost certainly corrosion will had the contacts in the junction box... BTW if so then it's a so-so design; yet in contrast Premier 3 el Band I designs - which have 'Telerection' style 1/10 and 1/4 element spacings but use a folded dipole in contrast to the characteristic Telerection tapped plain dipole - were good; possibly out-pacing the legendary Antiference 'Trumatch' Band I designs.

I agree with the likely TXs; Litchfield on B8 and Sutton Coldfield on B4. Interestingly Ridge ITA on B6 would have been a strong signal when it started as a relay, yet no Band III aerial for it. The signal on B6 on the 8 el at an off bearing of 90 degrees would probably have had more ghosts than the local graveyard! Perhaps no B6 biscuits in the TV tuner, as B6 only became available late on, when Cambridge Radio-Astronomy stopped using 178 Mc/s ??
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2014, 10:38 am   #114
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,188
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
Interestingly Ridge ITA on B6 would have been a strong signal when it started as a relay, yet no Band III aerial for it.....Perhaps no B6 biscuits in the TV tuner, as B6 only became available late on, when Cambridge Radio-Astronomy stopped using 178 Mc/s ??
Very true. Also Ridge Hill chB6V didn't open until 30th July 1968! At that time there was much talk about the new 3-channel 625-line UHF colour service due to start in the next year or two, so perhaps they didn't consider it economic to erect a new CH6 aerial if reception from the existing aerials was already satisfactory. In addition, being only 6.5miles away, good results may have been obtained from an indoor or attic aerial.

Cheers,
Brian
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2014, 10:45 am   #115
SteveCG
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Brian,

True - probably a piece of wet string would have done for B6 reception - yet if I remember correctly they would have had to wait until 1973 for Ridge Hill UHF. Certainly there are plenty of J-Beam MBMs in the present Ridge Hill UHF service area looking to Wenvoe or Sutton Coldfield for their (weak !) signals.
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2014, 9:54 pm   #116
Steve FPV
Triode
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Malvern, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 28
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Hi,

I took these while walking around Malvern over the Bank Holiday weekend. Malvern 7 gives a good idea of the take off from the town centre. Most antennas are aimed at the Birmingham transmitters, but Malvern 1 seems to be looking in an easterly direction. I've no idea which transmitters that would be!

Ah, no file names! the photos are Malvern 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7. Not shown are 2, which is a colapsed array resting on a roof and 4 which is an X with one element missing.

Steve.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Malvern 1.jpg
Views:	201
Size:	49.7 KB
ID:	92865   Click image for larger version

Name:	Malvern 3.jpg
Views:	188
Size:	30.0 KB
ID:	92866   Click image for larger version

Name:	Malvern 5.jpg
Views:	205
Size:	46.6 KB
ID:	92867   Click image for larger version

Name:	Malvern 6.jpg
Views:	176
Size:	43.2 KB
ID:	92868   Click image for larger version

Name:	Malvern 7.jpg
Views:	190
Size:	68.7 KB
ID:	92869  


Last edited by AC/HL; 12th May 2014 at 11:54 pm. Reason: PS merged
Steve FPV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2014, 9:02 am   #117
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,188
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Brilliant photos Steve, many thanks for catching them. As the one in the opposite direction I can only think Wenvoe CH5 and Ridge Hill CH6 as a guess?

Cheers,
Brian
Focus Diode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2014, 9:36 am   #118
SteveCG
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,746
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Steve,

Was the first photo taken near to the Abbey Hotel close to the town centre?
SteveCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2014, 11:14 am   #119
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 12,165
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve PPV
Ah, no file names!
You can see file names by hovering your mouse cursor over the image.
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Keep the soldering iron hot.
Station X is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2014, 11:26 am   #120
winston_1
Pentode
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 167
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by vidjoman View Post
It also paved the way for colour transmissions that were not possible in the limited bandwidth available on VHF.
That is just not true. The rest of the world had colour transmissions on VHF.

Colour tests were even done on 405 line by both the BBC and ITA.
winston_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:39 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2017, Paul Stenning.