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Old 28th Oct 2013, 10:21 am   #61
SteveCG
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Belling and Lee sold a special H - with sloping elements that looked like a double V for use in the Midland service area for CH B4 & CH B8 because of that 3 to 1 frequency relationship.

I agree with Nicklyons2 that the Band III aerial is a Membury (CH B12) pointing J-Beam design.
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 10:26 am   #62
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

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Originally Posted by crusher19860138 View Post

There are still a load of 405 line aerials on the rooftops in my area,i will take some pics and put them up here shortly......
I wonder how many ageing, corroded survivors succumbed last night?
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 10:54 am   #63
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

The other day I was checking the Log Periodic that I installed at my mothers place a few years ago, it was all fine. The house is located on higher ground than the the surrounding properties so I was having a gander at the other installations as I've noticed quite a few have recently been changed. The standard of work is mostly deplorable, most use plated steel masts and a few don't even have the coax fastened down! On some of the older installs the steel masts are rusting badly with the rust stains bleeding down the wall or eaves cladding. Seems that the Aerial fitting trade can be as bad as the motor trade.
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 1:59 pm   #64
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

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Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
Belling and Lee sold a special H - with sloping elements that looked like a double V for use in the Midland service area for CH B4 & CH B8 because of that 3 to 1 frequency relationship.
That sounds very much like the aerial we had that I refer to in post # 37, seemed to work as good as band 1/3 combinations that nearby houses used..
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 3:25 pm   #65
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

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Originally Posted by threeseven View Post
The other day I was checking the Log Periodic that I installed at my mothers place a few years ago, it was all fine. The house is located on higher ground than the the surrounding properties so I was having a gander at the other installations as I've noticed quite a few have recently been changed. The standard of work is mostly deplorable, most use plated steel masts and a few don't even have the coax fastened down! On some of the older installs the steel masts are rusting badly with the rust stains bleeding down the wall or eaves cladding. Seems that the Aerial fitting trade can be as bad as the motor trade.
It is most noticeable that the standard of today's aerial installations are not a patch on the old,i have a 405 line era chimney bracket,which looks as good as the day it was fitted,when i needed a new aerial,the installer said the lashings were in good order,but i doubt the aerial he fitted will last as long
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 3:27 pm   #66
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

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Originally Posted by nigelr2000 View Post
Visiting my Mum in Wiltshire and saw this on top of the local Indian. Is it a TV array or something newer. ??
On rechecking the photo,where are the UHF aerials pointing to?if it's Mendip,then the Band 3 won't be pointing at Membury,maybe Bath?
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 11:36 pm   #67
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

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Originally Posted by crusher19860138 View Post
Band 3 came from Lichfield,Band 1 from Sutton.
Of course it did, silly mistake on my part.

I meant to point out they were approximately the same distance and orientation from where my uncle lived (or from us for that matter).

Last edited by ntscuser; 28th Oct 2013 at 11:53 pm.
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Old 29th Oct 2013, 11:52 am   #68
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Re post No. 66

Hmm, well the UHF aerials look like Group C/D to me, so I agree that Mendip is a good candidate. In which case where is a Band I H pointing in exactly the same direction as a Band III ? If we think the Band I elements are comparatively short then Channel B5 and Wenvoe come to mind. BTW, I don't think the Band I is a J-Beam, the junction box cover is the wrong shape.

So would Bath fit the Bill instead, since the Bath relay used H pol Band III for both BBC and ITV. However looking closely at the picture I noticed that the Band III reflector elements are missing, in which case the J-Beam could be receiving its signal from the rear (J-Beam slots are quite wide-band). Perhaps those more adept at using google map than me could triangulate the directions to solve the mystery!
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Old 29th Oct 2013, 9:10 pm   #69
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Using the satellite image and pulling out from the location in the photo, seems to suggest the UHF aerial is on Mendip, the Band 1 is on Wenvoe and the Band 3 is pointing in the Bath direction. (Assuming the reflectors have indeed, dropped off)
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Old 30th Oct 2013, 3:44 pm   #70
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Thanks John for sorting out the directions. I don't think Bath was all that powerful a relay (approx 500 W ? on CHs B6 & B8), so that could explain the 'Double' aerial - alternatively the original aerial for St Hilary (CH B10) was just turned on its mount...
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Old 30th Oct 2013, 7:40 pm   #71
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Digressing a bit,

I've a 405 line dipole aerial I put in our loft space for my hifi tuner/amp forty years ago. It even has the old small diameter coax cable, which feeds down into the front room.
Currently I'm using it for a Freeview HD TV. I get a perfect picture on all channels, except for 51 & 52, which isn't quite as good, but it's still watchable and doesn't break up.
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Old 30th Oct 2013, 8:26 pm   #72
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

It's amazing what will work in a strong-signal area. Until recently I was using an old aluminium-tube coaxial-dipole designed for 81MHz PMR work and propped-up against the wall to receive 101MHz Classic-FM on my bedroom clock-radio.
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Old 30th Oct 2013, 9:20 pm   #73
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

You can indeed get away with very little when you are in a strong signal area and there are no metal structures to cause multi-path reflections. My mother, who lives in Dagenham, East London, is still using the set-top aerial that came with her first dual standard (405/625) TV in 1969, connected by the old small diameter coax feeder. It has two square loops, and simply rests on a joist in the loft pointing in the general direction of Crystal Palace.

I originally installed it as a temporary measure when they first moved in, but as it gave an excellent picture, never found it necessary to fit the sort of multi-element Yagi aerial that her neighbours now have. She used to get ghost- and noise-free analogue reception, and now gets a stong noise-free digital signal on two TVs that are fed via a passive splitter, with no sign of pixellation or freezing.

The 405 line VHF aerial (two telescopic arms in a VEE) is still in use, but for FM reception, the 75 ohm coax feeder being connected to the 300ohm balanced aerial sockets without a balun. It too simply rests on a joist.

You would have been unlikely to see many 405 line VHF aerials in Dagenham as the council prohibited external roof-mounted aerials in their council houses without a permit. No doubt there are still some mouldering away in lofts. My late aunt, who only lived 2 miles from my mother, had good VHF reception from her loft aerial, but noisy UHF reception. When I went up in her loft to investigate, I found that the UHF aerial was pointing through the party wall, which was coke breeze. Moving the aerial a few yards sideways so it was pointing through the tiles, brought a dramatic improvement.

Last edited by emeritus; 30th Oct 2013 at 9:27 pm.
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 6:22 pm   #74
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Spotted in Bedale, North Riding of Yorkshire earlier today. A choice between TTT Burnhope ch8 and Granada, later YTV Emley Moor on ch10. The BBC aerial is for Holme Moss on ch2.

Brian
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 6:28 pm   #75
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Re: post no. 74

They look like Belling & Lee Band III by the shape and colour of the junction box covers.

I wonder if the Band I one is just a reflector where the dipole box has fractured and fallen off?
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 8:34 am   #76
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

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Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
I wonder if the Band I one is just a reflector where the dipole box has fractured and fallen off?
It has by the look of it. A bit of PC trickery could re-mount it of course as I later tried with one of the missing elements on the Coldstream aerials in the first post.

Cheers,
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 10:55 am   #77
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

... my only concern with calling the two aerials Belling & Lee is that the element spacings and the boom supports are not things that I've seen on known Belling & Lee aerials. Rather the gradually increasing element spacings is something that J-Beam did - but the dipole box and the folded dipole being in the plane of the other elements are not J-Beam features. Perhaps these were late version B&Ls from just before they were taken over in 1968? Yet the Band I aerial looks like a 1950s construction... A nerd's puzzle!

Last edited by SteveCG; 8th Nov 2013 at 10:56 am. Reason: typo
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 10:42 am   #78
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

That's better! The magic of modern technology re-creating the old! Could be a lot better if more time was spent on it.

Cheers,

Brian
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Old 20th Feb 2014, 2:32 pm   #79
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Two wind blown 405 line aerials just a few yards apart in Billingshurst West Sussex this morning. One is directed towards Crystal Palace and the other Rowridge. Both signals would have been well received in this area. I don't think they will be around much longer. Regards, John.
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Old 21st Feb 2014, 9:44 am   #80
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Excellent photos John. They've been through a lot yet still appear patiently awaiting the return of 405-line television! Full credit to those brave enough to mount these huge structures so high up, remembering a ch1 dipole is about 11ft in length!

I must get round to photographing a seperate ch5 and 8 set in Prudhoe which is still standing.

Cheers and many thanks again for the photos.
Brian
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