50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires - Page 2 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

McMurdo · 25th Sep 2012, 11:27 pm

My Aunties early 1960's estate-built house had one from new in the bathroom; it was incorporated into the circular light fitting. You can still buy them...as you can with the linear ones.

cmjones01 · 25th Sep 2012, 11:42 pm

Oh, I remember the round one from my grandparents' house, built in the late sixties I think. It had a little window in with a flag operated by the pullcord which changed between OFF/LIGHT/HEAT/LIGHT+HEAT which fascinated me as a child!

emeritus · 26th Sep 2012, 1:06 am

I installed one of the circular combined heater and light types (750W I think) in my mother's bathroom in the 1970's. It still works, although since central heating was installed about 10 years ago the heater part hasn't had much use. This model was intended to replace the existing bathroom luminaire, and hers has a frosted shade to protect the bulb.

I found the 4 stage switching inconvenient, and rewired it so that the bulb is controlled by the existing bathroom pull cord switch, and the heater is switched by the heater's former lighting contacts, so that alternate pulls toggle the heater on and off.

Brigham · 26th Sep 2012, 9:55 am

Did you re-label the flags accordingly?

hamid_1 · 26th Sep 2012, 7:21 pm

I also have the circular heater with light fitting, made by "Thermaire". My parents had one in their house in the early 1970s. They left it behind when they moved. I found another one at the tip a couple of years ago and took it home. It appeared to have been unused - it still had the protective foam on the element!

The one I found has two separate pull-cord switches, one for heat and one for light. Makes sense, but the light switch seems to be stuck permanently ON on my one. Maybe it was defective from new, and hence never used.
I was going to install it in my bathroom, using the existing bathroom pull-cord switch to turn the light on and off instead of the broken one. However I came across another problem. Being metal cased, the heater/light fitting requires an earth connection. But when I unscrewed the existing batten lampholder in the bathroom, there was no earth wire, just live and neutral (red and black). What can I do?

I do remember the wall-mounted Dimplex heaters from the '70s like Steve has; I'm pretty sure my aunt had one. When first switched on, the element heated up unevenly. Some bits would glow bright orange while other bits were a dull red or black. I used to see those heaters in car boot sales and at the tip, usually covered in splashes of paint and rust, but probably still working. It shouldn't be too hard to get a spare element for one.

Nickthedentist · 26th Sep 2012, 8:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamid_1

But when I unscrewed the existing batten lampholder in the bathroom, there was no earth wire, just live and neutral (red and black). What can I do?

You've done the sensible thing by calling a halt at that point, for the time being.

A separate earth back to the consumer unit, or a full re-wire of the lighting circuit are the obvious solutions, neither of which are probably very appealing.

Note that with things the way they are at the moment, I believe that DIY electricity in bathrooms is forbidden, and furthermore, there are stricter rules than ever about RCDs and zoning, i.e. where appliances can be mounted, and where their supply cables can be run.

emeritus · 26th Sep 2012, 8:44 pm

I don't think my mother's heater has any flags, just a not-very-prominent neon lamp to indicate if the heater is ON or OFF. As the bathroom ceiling is nearly 9' high, reading flags would be problematic.

Her house had been rewired in the early 1960's, and each ceiling rose is provided with an earth terminal.

Nickthedentist · 26th Sep 2012, 9:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamid_1

What can I do?

Just realised that may be a rhetorical question, in which case ignore my answer

Glowing Bits! · 26th Sep 2012, 10:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickthedentist

Note that with things the way they are at the moment, I believe that DIY electricity in bathrooms is forbidden, and furthermore, there are stricter rules than ever about RCDs and zoning, i.e. where appliances can be mounted, and where their supply cables can be run.

Oh dear, I changed the extractor fan about two years ago, does that mean the electric police are after me?
The one thing I find a bit daft with the rules is the fact that a 13 amp socket can now be fitted in bathrooms if it's 3 metres from the bath, this only became legal since we joined the EU.

hamid_1 · 27th Sep 2012, 12:25 am

Thanks Nick, it wasn't a purely rhetorical question. I wanted to install the ceiling heater / light fitting but came unstuck because of the lack of an earth connection. I was hoping that someone on here who is suitably qualified might give me a definitive answer about what to do. I wondered if an earth wire could be taken from somewhere else, although I kind of suspect your previous answer (the whole lighting circuit needs to be rewired) may be correct.

Glowing Bits! · 27th Sep 2012, 5:26 am

If I were in your position, I'd take a look behind/in other fixtures to see if they have an earth.
If there are no earths on any of the light fixtures, then it's time to consider a re-wire.
The next step would be to locate a nearby socket, ceiling rose, junction box, etc to see if there's an earth there, if so, try tapping off that to give you an earth for the light fixture.
Now here comes the main question, is the house privately owned or is it rented?
Hope this bit of advice may be of use.

Nickthedentist · 27th Sep 2012, 8:31 am

Maybe the most practical solution would be a length of new twin & earth back to the consumer unit, and its own, dedicated RCBO (i.e. combined MCB and RCD), assuming you have enough space in it.

Do an internet search for "equipotential bonding" too, which is basically connecting all the metal things in the bathroom (bath, radiator, taps, heaters, pipework) together so that they're always at the same voltage meaning a shock by touching two of them at the same should be impossible.

N.B. I'm no expert in this area, just an enthusiastic amateur

Nick.

julie_m · 27th Sep 2012, 9:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glowing Bits!

Oh dear, I changed the extractor fan about two years ago, does that mean the electric police are after me?

Not if it was a like-for-like replacement (which is specifically exempted). Anyway, it will most probably only ever become an issue (1) if your house burns down and there is reason to suspect an electrical fault, or (2) if/when you come to sell the property -- in the worst case, you will have to pay for remedial work (if you did a lousy job in the first place) and retesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glowing Bits!

The one thing I find a bit daft with the rules is the fact that a 13 amp socket can now be fitted in bathrooms if it's 3 metres from the bath, this only became legal since we joined the EU.

I didn't know that

Then again, there is no such place as "3 metres from the bath" in my bathroom .....

Station X · 27th Sep 2012, 10:43 am

Quote:

The one thing I find a bit daft with the rules is the fact that a 13 amp socket can now be fitted in bathrooms if it's 3 metres from the bath, this only became legal since we joined the EU.

Really? It's over 40 years since Britain joined the Common Market, which later became the EU. Sockets in bathrooms weren't permiited until the 17th edition of IEE regs came out in January 2008.

Is there an EU directive which mandates that member states must allow sockets in bathrooms?

Brigham · 27th Sep 2012, 2:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamid_1

what can i do?

a), Don't touch it without turning the mains off!

b), If it has a neon indicator between the 'live' or 'switched live' lead and neutral, you could move the 'live' end of the neon to the 'earth' terminal of the heater. If the neon is between 'live' and 'earth', you could swap the 'live' neon wire to neutral.

In case b), the neon glowing indicates that the heater casing is 'alive', reminding you of the suggestion in case a).

Hunts smoothing bomb · 27th Sep 2012, 8:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamid_1

I wanted to install the ceiling heater / light fitting but came unstuck because of the lack of an earth connection. I was hoping that someone on here who is suitably qualified might give me a definitive answer about what to do.

Hello Hamid,

Is the room to where the light fitting is to be installed upstairs?
If so I would climb up in the loft and see if you have any cables up there, look for power socket or immersion heater wiring, it will be thicker than the lighting cable, that should have an earth conductor inside,
I would then isolate that circuit, and install a round joint box (30A) from which I would run an earth conductor from and to the fitting.

This isn't technically correct but is far better (and safer) than strapping a neon between neutral and earth to tell you when (and if) the case is at line potential.

Cheers

D.Finney · 2nd Oct 2012, 10:08 am

My grandparents had one of these in the mid 60s, when the spiral element broke my Mum managed to hook the ends of broken wire together and it worked for ages after; don't know if it would pass modern safety standards though.

broadgage · 21st Oct 2012, 4:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by McMurdo

My Aunties early 1960's estate-built house had one from new in the bathroom; it was incorporated into the circular light fitting. You can still buy them...as you can with the linear ones.

Today there was an advert for the circular type in a tabloid newspaper, so there would still seem to be a market for these.

Station X · 22nd Nov 2015, 1:31 pm

One post moved to a new thread here:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=121300

ColinB · 22nd Nov 2015, 6:31 pm

I think the other posters have it right, it is time to consider a rewire of the lighting circuit if it has no earth at the light fittings.

As far as I know, un-earthed lighting wiring hasn't been permitted since 1966, so this makes the existing installation a minimum of 49 years old now...

I believe prior to this it was sometimes found that the loop would have an earth conductor (giving earth at the lights), but the switch drops were be two core only. My parents last house (built 1962 I believe) was certainly like this.

25th Sep 2012, 11:27 pm	#21
McMurdo Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK. Posts: 5,274	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires My Aunties early 1960's estate-built house had one from new in the bathroom; it was incorporated into the circular light fitting. You can still buy them...as you can with the linear ones. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Kevin

25th Sep 2012, 11:42 pm	#22
cmjones01 Nonode Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK Posts: 2,681	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires Oh, I remember the round one from my grandparents' house, built in the late sixties I think. It had a little window in with a flag operated by the pullcord which changed between OFF/LIGHT/HEAT/LIGHT+HEAT which fascinated me as a child!

26th Sep 2012, 1:06 am	#23
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,349	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires I installed one of the circular combined heater and light types (750W I think) in my mother's bathroom in the 1970's. It still works, although since central heating was installed about 10 years ago the heater part hasn't had much use. This model was intended to replace the existing bathroom luminaire, and hers has a frosted shade to protect the bulb. I found the 4 stage switching inconvenient, and rewired it so that the bulb is controlled by the existing bathroom pull cord switch, and the heater is switched by the heater's former lighting contacts, so that alternate pulls toggle the heater on and off.

26th Sep 2012, 9:55 am	#24
Brigham Octode Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Co. Durham, UK. Posts: 1,118	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires Did you re-label the flags accordingly?

26th Sep 2012, 7:21 pm	#25
hamid_1 Heptode Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: High Wycombe, Bucks. UK. Posts: 811	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires I also have the circular heater with light fitting, made by "Thermaire". My parents had one in their house in the early 1970s. They left it behind when they moved. I found another one at the tip a couple of years ago and took it home. It appeared to have been unused - it still had the protective foam on the element! The one I found has two separate pull-cord switches, one for heat and one for light. Makes sense, but the light switch seems to be stuck permanently ON on my one. Maybe it was defective from new, and hence never used. I was going to install it in my bathroom, using the existing bathroom pull-cord switch to turn the light on and off instead of the broken one. However I came across another problem. Being metal cased, the heater/light fitting requires an earth connection. But when I unscrewed the existing batten lampholder in the bathroom, there was no earth wire, just live and neutral (red and black). What can I do? I do remember the wall-mounted Dimplex heaters from the '70s like Steve has; I'm pretty sure my aunt had one. When first switched on, the element heated up unevenly. Some bits would glow bright orange while other bits were a dull red or black. I used to see those heaters in car boot sales and at the tip, usually covered in splashes of paint and rust, but probably still working. It shouldn't be too hard to get a spare element for one.

26th Sep 2012, 8:44 pm	#27
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,349	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires I don't think my mother's heater has any flags, just a not-very-prominent neon lamp to indicate if the heater is ON or OFF. As the bathroom ceiling is nearly 9' high, reading flags would be problematic. Her house had been rewired in the early 1960's, and each ceiling rose is provided with an earth terminal.

27th Sep 2012, 12:25 am	#30
hamid_1 Heptode Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: High Wycombe, Bucks. UK. Posts: 811	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires Thanks Nick, it wasn't a purely rhetorical question. I wanted to install the ceiling heater / light fitting but came unstuck because of the lack of an earth connection. I was hoping that someone on here who is suitably qualified might give me a definitive answer about what to do. I wondered if an earth wire could be taken from somewhere else, although I kind of suspect your previous answer (the whole lighting circuit needs to be rewired) may be correct.

27th Sep 2012, 5:26 am	#31
Glowing Bits! Octode Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK. Posts: 1,457	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires If I were in your position, I'd take a look behind/in other fixtures to see if they have an earth. If there are no earths on any of the light fixtures, then it's time to consider a re-wire. The next step would be to locate a nearby socket, ceiling rose, junction box, etc to see if there's an earth there, if so, try tapping off that to give you an earth for the light fixture. Now here comes the main question, is the house privately owned or is it rented? Hope this bit of advice may be of use.

27th Sep 2012, 8:31 am	#32
Nickthedentist Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 17,864	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires Maybe the most practical solution would be a length of new twin & earth back to the consumer unit, and its own, dedicated RCBO (i.e. combined MCB and RCD), assuming you have enough space in it. Do an internet search for "equipotential bonding" too, which is basically connecting all the metal things in the bathroom (bath, radiator, taps, heaters, pipework) together so that they're always at the same voltage meaning a shock by touching two of them at the same should be impossible. N.B. I'm no expert in this area, just an enthusiastic amateur Nick.

2nd Oct 2012, 10:08 am	#37
D.Finney Pentode Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 147	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires My grandparents had one of these in the mid 60s, when the spiral element broke my Mum managed to hook the ends of broken wire together and it worked for ages after; don't know if it would pass modern safety standards though.

22nd Nov 2015, 1:31 pm	#39
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,289	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires One post moved to a new thread here:- https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=121300 __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

22nd Nov 2015, 6:31 pm	#40
ColinB Heptode Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Newton Abbot, Devon, UK. Posts: 761	Re: 50s/60s Radiant Wall Fires I think the other posters have it right, it is time to consider a rewire of the lighting circuit if it has no earth at the light fittings. As far as I know, un-earthed lighting wiring hasn't been permitted since 1966, so this makes the existing installation a minimum of 49 years old now... I believe prior to this it was sometimes found that the loop would have an earth conductor (giving earth at the lights), but the switch drops were be two core only. My parents last house (built 1962 I believe) was certainly like this.