Garrard TA MkII: are they all very rumbly?

[Nickthedentist]

I'm lucky enough to own an early 1960s Clarke & Smith schools-type record player, which I bought cheaply in excellent unrestored condition.

It's very well made and has a substantial push-pull amp chassis which delivers some 7w RMS into a huge Elac elliptical speaker, all housed in a nice oak-veneered case.

The deck is a Garrard TA MkII single play unit. Again, build quality is first rate and I had very high hopes for it.

This deck is externally fairly similar to the TA, but has a simpler, more up-to-date drive arrangement with a single idler. Pictures to follow.

After doing the usual clean and lubrication service, I tried it. There's plenty of torque and speed stability is superb, with no discernable wow or flutter even on sustained piano notes, but the amount of rumble is shocking! It's OKish for 78s, but LPs and EPs are rendered rather unpleasant. My humble BSR UA6 autochangers are miles better in this respect.

With the platter off, idler retracted, and motor on, there's no noise, the motor spinning away utterly silently.

But as soon as the idler is allowed to ride against the motor spindle, the rumble starts, and is even picked up by the pickup on its rest and is audiable through the speaker. And with the platter on, you can even hear a musical "ringing" noise as it resonates slightly.

The motor's grommets are nice and supple, the idler doesn't have any flat spots, and it's running in the centre of each step of the motor pulley (i.e. not rubbing against the top of the step below).

I suspect the idler personally, but I haven't got another to try and nor have I got another TA MKII to compare it with. Any ideas?

I have a spare C&S motor board cut for an SP25 which is very tempting, but I'd like to get it running as-is if possible.

Nick.

[ben]

Almost certainly the idler. Have you cleaned and relubricated the main bearing?

[Peter.N.]

Hi Nick

I would suspect that although the idler doesn't have any flat spots it has gone hard due to its age so its acting more like a tram wheel than a rubber tyre. I think there are things you can do to restore its suppleness and I expect someone will be along soon to tell you how.

Peter

[Nickthedentist]

Thanks, Ben and Peter.

Yes, the main bearing (which has a certain similarity to that used on the 301 and 4HF ISTR, but smaller) has been stripped, cleaned and lubricated, as has the motor.

I may try one of those rubber-rejuvenating products, though I'm slightly sceptical. I also wonder whether the idler's bearing could have something to do with it.

Nick.

[Tractorfan]

Hi,

At one point I had five of these after my old secondary school became a college and I saved them from the skip. Moving out here forced me to let them go. If only this forum had existed then. I later (too late) realised that two of the amps would have made a rather nice stereo amp.

Maybe the rubber idler wheel has become hardened with age causing the rumbling. I read on here that they can sometimes be boiled to soften them again. (Remember to take the spuds out first, it makes 'em taste funny )

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Pete

[Audio1950]

You could always try the old trick of putting a flat rubber band round the edge of the idler wheel. Even if you don't fancy it as a permanent solution, it will at least put a soft edge on the idler, so you can tell if that's the problem or not. I did it with the idler on my RC88 about four years ago, and it's still going strong, and it's used regularly. Having found it worked, I fixed it with contact adhesive.

Barry

[Nickthedentist]

Thanks for the suggestions, chaps.

I am reluctant to do anything too drastic as the idler still has plenty of grip and no flats, but a rubber band round the edge would certainly be worth a try.

Nick.

[bobbyball]

I had a player years ago using the "TA MK II" deck and I don't remember excessive rumble issues. As you say it's a nice unit and was used in some quite "upmarket" units of the time - Dynatron certainly used it in one of theirs...

Robert

[Nickthedentist]

I agree, Robert. It has a fairly crude arm and small platter, but the overall "feel" of something rather nice, a bit like the 4HF. The main bearing is certainly in a different league from those found on cheap changers.

[Nickthedentist]

Pics as promised

[bobbyball]

Looks like new!

Even the idler doesn't look "that" bad...

However as it's mounted on quite a large wooden board - which will act as a baffle and accentuate rumble, check the mountings - the springs are often too stiff...

Robert

[GP49000]

In the USA, that model (or something very similar) was called the T/II. It used the same idler wheel as the RC88-RC98, which means the same as the Type A, Type A70, 70 Mk II, the Lab 80 models and more. They can harden up unevenly, which causes rumble that can only be cured by replacing the idler or having new rubber moulded to it and ground to shape/size. Or, the rubber band trick (it DOES work!)

[Chiltern]

Nick,

perhaps this idler might help, I believe it to be the one for your deck, approx 2.25" diameter.

send Pm, I'll pop it in the post.

I do have a 4HF, and even after replacing the idler with a rebuilt one from the USA (which seemed to 'wobble' more than I expected) still rumbled unacceptably for stereo records but was OK for mono. In fact my best results to date are with a tape recorder idler of approx the correct diameter with a machined spindle for it. IMO the rumble is the combination of the large steel platter, and the motor mounts which as you all know are very different from Garrard 301/401. I have Garrard SP25's and an SL65 with far less rumble. The 4HF is a very attractive design though.

Alan

[PauldeH]

I had rumble problems with a Garrard AT6 once, which turned out to be due to the idler not being aligned correctly at right-angles to the motor drive pulley. I presume this caused noisy slippage between the pulley and idler surfaces. A bit of trial and error and it runs quietly now.

[Nickthedentist]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone, I will have a look at the points raised in due course.

Alan, I will PM you.

Nick.

[GP49000]

Originally Posted by Nickthedentist in the Garrard Identification sticky thread:

GA49000, have you got any additional pearls of wisdom re. the TA MkII etc. as discussed in this thread to which you contributed?

Once you have eliminated a rough motor pulley, vibrating motor and bent motor shaft, just about all that remains is the idler wheel. The motor and drive system of the TA Mk II was the same as that of the RC88, which does not have a reputation as a noisy rumbler. However, the T models have a much lower-mass chassis, so an equal amount of vibration generated by the drive system will "shake" them more than the heavier RC88. Also, the motor/idler are mounted much closer to the tonearm base in the TA Mk II than in the RC88, so that could be expected to transmit more vibration.

If possible, try screwing the TA Mk II firmly to a sturdy mounting board. Often that will reduce rumble (the drive system has to "shake" the entire mounting board so the amplitude of vibration will be less) but will reduce isolation from footfalls, etc. (in my area, earthquakes!).

As I remember them the T models were satisfactory for mono but somewhat rumbly for stereo. All of the older Garrards not initially designed for stereo were like that (vertical rumble was the problem).

If you don't have a spare idler (they're common; the same Garrard 53883 idler was used in other models from the RC88 all the way up to the Lab 80 and Type A70), check its periphery VERY carefully for flat spots. The rubber could also have hard spots in it. They develop from age and there's not much that can be done about it other than to put new rubber on it, once that happens. I also believe, but never have had it confirmed, that the original idlers supplied with the Lab 80 and Type A70 were made of softer rubber to reduce rumble, although the part number was unchanged.

Different idlers, perhaps due to different rubber compounds, age differently. I have some that are very quiet but also slippery. They are just as useless as the ones that are grippy and noisy.

When I get to the old single players in the T-series, I'll probably use the photos you took of yours, especially the ones that illustrate the internal workings.

[Nickthedentist]

Thank you!

Alanomt kindly sent me a reclaimed idler, but I have to admit that I've not had time to assess it properly yet.

Fixing it firmly to a substantial plinth isn't an option here (other than as an experiment) as it's part of an all-in-one record player with large speaker and powerful amp.

You may of course use my photos; I'd be honoured. I'd be happy to provide more if you want, though the unit is in storage at the moment and cannot be got to quickly.

Nick.

[GP49000]

If you have a way to tap off the line-level signal to a tape recorder good enough to record the rumble, and a way to temporarily disconnect the loudspeaker (in an all-in-one phonograph, all this might not be possible):

With everything set up normally on a record with low-level recorded music, and the TA Mk II rumbling along, start the recorder. After a minute or so, disconnect the loudspeaker and continue recording for a minute or so.

Listen to the tape on a wide-range system. If you hear the background rumble become less at the instant where the loudspeaker is disconnected, the problem might not be rumble but vibrational feedback. In that case, firmly fixing the TA Mk II to its mounting board would NOT be a good idea!

[mark_in_manc]

Originally Posted by Nickthedentist

...the amount of rumble is shocking! It's OKish for 78s, but LPs and EPs are rendered rather unpleasant...

Interesting that it's better on 78s. I would have thought that with the idler going faster, any irregularities would imply noise components further *up* the spectrum, which I would have thought would be subjectively worse, not better.

Then again, rotational intertia is a function of revs, mass and the location of that mass - so maybe going faster smooths things out (though this would imply in-plane 'rotational' vibration or v.rapid speed variation, not a vertical component). In which case, it would be really interesting to experiment with a strip of roofing lead wired to the outer perimeter of the platter. Won't look nice, but interesting...

[D_S_J_R]

My Lab 80mk2 uses visually the same idler, but mine has a slight "flat" on it which I've been working on. In the meantime, a VERY kind soul on here sent me a visually identical idler from an earlier model. This one rumbles quite noticeably although a thorough cleaning to smooth out the surface helped a bit.

It would appear that around the time of the launch of the Autoslim-based range in 1962? Garrard may have softened the rubber compound of their domestic idler models in an attempt to minimise noise. The 301 and 401 are different and have their own issues with noise, but a thorough fettling and carefully matched plinth sorts this for these decks.

My recommendation would be to either look out for a lab 80 idler wheel, or send yours to one of the companies that re-tyre these things (there's at least one in the US I've considered but I have no idea about UK sources). try adjusting or even bypassing the suspension of the top plate and see if that helps.

One other thing before I forget... it COULD be the motor isolation grommets going hard or conversely, soggy. The grommets from my AT6 definitely need to be replaced at some point, since the motor doesn't vibrate much when running, yet the "vibration-hum" coming through the pickup is alarming when compared to the much quieter and later descendent 60mk2 I also have.