Transfer Marconiphone reel to reel tape to computer

[lucioanna]

I have a Marconiphone 4208 reel to reel 4 track tape recorder, it is very old but still in working order at the moment.

I have some tapes that have some very precious family voices on them and I want to transfer some of them onto my computer to make CD's. As there is a lot of tape to wade through I will have to do this myself. So I was wondering if anyone can tell me how to do it. On the back of the machine where it says Output there are two holes - one says L.S and the other RAD.

Today I went to a shop to buy a lead and showed the machine to them, they were doubtful it could be done, however, he sold me an Audio lead 3.5mm Stereo J/P to 2 x Phono Plugs. He also told me to use the RAD output socket and to turn down the volume on the recorder in case it was too much power going into the computer - which could damage my computer. This has rather frightened me so as yet I haven't tried it.

Does anyone know this model that can help me? I have googled a 4202 model and it is almost identical.

Ann in Chesterfield

[mrmagnetophon]

Hello Ann,

I really would recommend that a pro who knows about this and has a professional machine with the proper setup do this.

However, I will also give you as much info as I can. The L.S is loudspeaker output, the RAD seems to be Radio A. D. not quite sure, but i believe it is the equivalent to a line output.
If so, it will be fine for recording. However noted it looks to be mono, also the problem is that if the tape was recording in 4 track mono you may not be able to acces the other track, especially if it was recorded 1/2 track mono.

Chris.

[Courtney Louise]

Hi Ann,

I do this all the time, I recently did some old Pirate Radio shows I found on a tape. I have all of the equipment in place and would gladly do this for free for you.

Of course you are very welcome to come down to Birmingham for the day and you can go through the tapes and watch the process too...

Regards

Andi

[cmjones01]

My Grandad had the same tape recorder, and I think it's still in my parents' loft somewhere. As far as I remember, the RAD (it's short for 'radio') socket is an input for recording things on to tape, and the L.S. socket is a loudspeaker output for playback.

You want to connect the L.S. socket to your computer's 'line in' connection. There is no risk of damaging the computer with 'too much power' with this set up. However, there is a risk that the tape recorder won't be happy with it: the L.S. socket may cut off the tape recorder's own loudspeaker when you put a plug in it. If this is the case, you really need an external loudspeaker, or load resistor. Strange as it may seem, valve loudspeaker amplifiers, such as that inside your tape machine, can behave badly or even be damaged if no loudspeaker is connected.

I would suggest a quick experiment. Start the tape playing on the Marconiphone with nothing plugged in to it, so that you can hear the sound from its own speaker. Then try briefly plugging one of your phono plugs into the L.S. socket. Does the speaker cut off? If so, go no further without more advice. If not, leave the phono plug in the L.S. socket and try connecting the jack plug to your computer, using something like Audacity to record it. Does the computer record the sound? If so, all is well.

Others who know the Marconiphone better will be able to give more precise advice, I'm sure. Or you could simply take up Andi's kind offer to do the transfer and save all this trouble!

Chris

[ben]

The real problem will be impedance mismatch between that LS socket and the PC operating at line level. Personally I'd try the RAD socket, these were often line level outputs (or near enough). The OP will need a Y adaptor (2 females to male) to get sound to both pc channels.

I have the manual for this deck somewhere, will dig it out later and check.

[lucioanna]

Hi Mr Magnetophon,
Thanks so much for your advice, I am seriously thinking of getting 'pro' help. In fact I would love to get it done by someone else, the problem is on each tape there are loads of unwanted stuff and music that has occasionally got some of my relations talking in between. What I want to do is just wade through the whole tape and just pick out the relation talking, it is a long job because I think their is about 2 hours altogether on the whole four tracks. I have 4 tapes in all to wade through - a long job! I didn't think a professional would have the patience!

I will give it a quick go first like Chris (cmjonesm1) suggested.
Will keep you all informed. Thanks a lot

Hi Andy

What a kind person you are, I would love to have come down and watched you do this and especially have someone else do it for me! But I'm an OAP and although I have learned to sort things out pretty well for my age - unfortunately, the journey would be a little too far for me at the moment, thanks anyway.

Hi Chris (cmjones)

Thanks so much for your advice and for explaining it in such an easy way. I am going to have a go this afternoon as you suggested. I dont hold out much hope for the L.S. socket, the man in the shop yesterday said it was loose and that there might be something that has been jammed inside. So I will be very careful and just briefly try it out.

Will let you know how it went


Hi Ben

Thank you so much for your input. I'm going to give it a try this afternoon and if it doesn't work properly, I will get a Y adaptor as you suggested.

If you do find the manual and you think it might be useful and there was a way you could scan it for me - I could give you my email address. But only if there is any useful information on it - sometimes manuals are very basic and I do know the basics of how everything works.

Thanks again all,
Ann

[cmjones01]

Originally Posted by ben

The real problem will be impedance mismatch between that LS socket and the PC operating at line level. Personally I'd try the RAD socket, these were often line level outputs (or near enough). The OP will need a Y adaptor (2 females to male) to get sound to both pc channels.

What do you mean by impedance mismatch here? The speaker output will have a low impedance, the PC a high input impedance. There's no problem with that. The possible problems are if the tape deck's power amplifier goes unstable or flashes over when unloaded, as some valve amplifiers do, or if the volume is too high the PC's input might be overloaded and distort, which is easily fixed by turning the volume down.

A PC's line input only cares about the signal voltage and will merrily handle anything up to about 2V. The voltage available from speaker terminals of a domestic tape recorder will be less than 5V even at full volume.

I have the manual for this deck somewhere, will dig it out later and check.

I'm curious to know what the sockets actually do!

[llama]

Just a little more input which I hope is useful.
First a question: does your PC have a line input? Most laptops I see have only a microphone input, which has a red sleeve around it. Most desktop PCs will have a line input. blue, anyone?

You should be able to record onto one channel into the PC and then duplicate that channel in the software so a Y adaptor would not be needed.

I use Cool Edit Pro for jobs like this but the modern equivalent (Adobe Audition) is expensive and not needed for your job. I've used Audacity in the past but I have recently found "Wave Editor" and I like it much better than Audacity. Free.

You will probably need to double-click the speaker icon (bottom right) and select Properties, Recording to make sure you have the correct input on the PC selected.

Finally, I would record the whole "side" of a tape in one go and then look at the waveform in the audio editor. You'll probably easily recognise the spoken parts. At least you can do a rought edit just deleting lumps of music.

Good luck - with all the help here I'm sure you can do it!
Graham

[Welsh Anorak]

Hi
I wouldn't be so happy about using the LS output. This model did tend to eat output transformers, and there might be a standing voltage on the terminals which your computer wouldn't like - of course I agree that if it's in good working order there would be no problem. As long as it sounds OK without hum or excessive distortion then you should be OK - monitoring via the computer bring the level (volume) up slowly from zero.
Unfortunately this may be the only way to go as I'm fairly sure the RAD sockets are inputs. Have a look on the back by the LS socket - there may be a DIN output jack - which would be the best compromise, I would suggest.
Yes - light blue is the line input.
Glyn

[Herald1360]

Can't find data for a 4208, but the 4202 (also a tape recorder) shows mic, radio and pickup inputs, plus radio and LS outputs. The RAD output looks to be a line level sort of thing, so a simple phono to 3.5mm jack plug lead should do for the connection.....

[ben]

I've found and scanned the manual I have for the HMV 2210 (Thorn manufacture, also badged Marconi, Ferguson and Ultra) but the forum limit of 200kb on images means I can't upload the whole thing. Instead I've put a couple of compressed extracts up. They show the player this information relates to, plus the connection panel and info.

The final image has the signal levels and spec for the various sockets and the pinout for the 'AUX' jack.

To the OP: It would appear this HMV version has a radio output, compare the rear panel and tell us if yours is the same. Also, if you'd like a copy of the full manual, send me your email address via PM.

[ricard]

I agree, the RAD output is probably the way to go. Using the LS output would require a low impedance ballast resistor and the sound quality is likely to be worse.

The RAD output looks like it has a fairly medium impedance at about 22k (from a 220k-22k potential divider). As such, the level might go down a bit if loaded with the line input of a computer (10k input impedence or so?). Might not be a problem, but at least something to be aware of. If the level is too low for the line input on the sound card, just try the microphone input instead.

[lucioanna]

I would just like to thank all of you for the helpful advice you have given me. I'm sorry I have not replied till now but I have had to travel all over the place in the last few days trying to find a suitable Y adaptor. Yesterday, I went to Sheffield to Maplins and they have also given me the wrong one so I will have to go back today and take the tape recorder with me, hopefully I will get the right one this time. I tried it out yesterday and there was a loud buzzing noise in my computor when I connected it up to my tape recorder, funny thing is the tape recorder wasn't even switched on, frightened the life out of me, if I ruin my computer I will be gutted.

GRAHAM, on the back of the tape recorder there are two holes alongside the word OUTPUT one says L.S. and the other says RAD. Then underneath those it says INPUT and there are another two holes - one says P.U. and the other RAD. Then to the right of those there is a larger socket with 9 small holes in a circle which says AUX. That is all there is. I have followed instructions on E-How and it is exactly the same as your instructions except that I had already downloaded Audacity. Then I got the loud buzzing noise and packed it in.

Regarding my computer, it is not a laptop and I do have the line input which is blue and I have been using it in my attempts to connect both machines. Once again thanks for your help at least I know I was doing it properly after I read your message.

GLYN, yes there was a loud buzzing noise as you suggested there might be. But I will try to get the right jack and lead today and try the RAD. Thanks a lot.

CHRIS AND RICARD - Thanks a lot for uploading that diagram but I'm completely ignorant when it comes to electronics. Perhaps it might mean something to the others on here and possibly solve the problem. Also I saw the 4202 on the web and it is identical in appearance to my 4208. I will definitely try the RAD today. Thank you again.

BEN: - Wow that is identical in every way to my Tape recorder particularly the output and input at the back, thank you so much for all your trouble and I will PM my email address to you, I would love to print it off. Thanks again.

Ann

[lucioanna]

Just wanted to add that in very small print at the back they have written:

"4208 Marconiphone incorporates a Thorn Tape Deck".

Which is the same as the HMV deck that you referred to Ben.

[ben]

If you're getting a buzz, then that is not necessarily anything serious. Don't worry about it for now. Just check the jack plug is firmly inserted into the PC line in.

Another thought has ocurred to me, these older phono sockets tended to use longer -pin plugs, so this might explain a lack of contact and/or the hum.

Will email you the manual in any case.

[Nickthedentist]

Originally Posted by ben

Another thought has ocurred to me, these older phono sockets tended to use longer -pin plugs, so this might explain a lack of contact and/or the hum.

Yes, the old plugs were the same, but the central pin was a shade longer. Usually if you push the plug in as hard as you can, it will just about work.

Nick.

[lucioanna]

Just a quick message to all you kind people that have helped me. I've finally managed to transfer my tape to my computer. But it is not all over yet, I now have a burning issue that I will overcome. The important thing is that the original cable I got with the two jacks (1 red and 1 white) has worked by using just the white jack into the back of my tape recorder and importantly, as some of you suggested I put it into the RAD hole.

I did a trial run with some recorded music and while it was recording on audacity I could hear the music both from my tape recorder and from my pc speaker. It all went well even down to the burning everything worked , only trouble is there is nothing on the CD! I will however overcome this, the important thing is the RAD hole is the way to go!

Ann

[llama]

Hi Ann,
I wonder if you have recorded a data disk rather than a music disk.
When recording into Audacity you should set the record parameters to stereo, 16 bit, 44.1kHz sampling which is the CD standard and save as a wav. Then your CD-burning software may ask you if you want to record a data or music CD (or may just guess!).
Graham

[lucioanna]

Hi Graham

Yes I did make that mistake and have now saved as a WAV file. But the reason I couldnt hear the CD that I had burnt was that I was playing it back on my very old CD player. It worked on my PC player.

Anyway, I have now sorted all the problems out and am in the process of wading through lots of tape that I have to burn to CD!

Thank you all once again for all your patience with an "electronic illiterate"

Ann

[ricard]

That's great that you've got the whole process together now!

I am a bit surprised that your 'very old CD player' could not play a CD-R. I have yet to come across a player that can't, but of course I can't claim that I've tried that many, and the reduced reflectivity on CD-R's compared to stamped (i.e. standard) CD's can be an issue. I still have a Philips CD-207, which I got in 1987 or so, which has played CD-R's without problems.

At any rate, while on this subject of archiving it might be worth giving the process some thought seen over a longer period of time. A lot of work these days goes into 'saving' old recordings onto more modern formats, such as CD-R. But CD-R's are not really a reliable form of long-term storage, and indeed whatever modern digital format (hard drive, USB memory, CD-R, etc) we come up with, it will either deteriorate in time, or become obsolete and hence in practice unreadable.

What I'm trying to say here is that there's a tendency to think 'great, now I've saved the recordings off this old obsolete medium (i.e. tape)', but we've in fact just transferred them to another medium which one day will become obsolete. We've saved the recordings for our generation, but what about the generations to come?

The good news is of course that it is much easier to copy digital data to new media when the old media shows signs of age.

The general consensus these days are 1) Keep the digitized data in more places than one, i.e. not just on a CD-R, but also on for instance a removable hard drive, and in a different location (think of risks of theft or fire), 2) At regular intervals copy the data to a new medium, i.e. every five or ten years gather up your collection of audio and video files and copy to a new hard disk, and 3) Keep the old media; if the digital copy goes up in smoke, someone will still be able to redo the transfer in the future. (Saving the actual machine to play them on in a case like this might not practical, if the need ever arises, the tapes can be played on another machine).

Analog media tends to stand up fairly well over time, and while there are tapes that exhibit various forms of deterioration, many do not, and will be playable for decades to come if the need arises. Indeed, one of the oldest recordings on magnetic wire is over 100 years old and still playable.