Early Philips Colour Television - Page 2 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

hans · 27th Feb 2012, 10:08 pm

I would think this is a mains isolated K9. Probably with a different power supply.

Synchrodyne · 29th Feb 2012, 12:41 am

I would expect an isolated power supply for a monitor-receiver. That said, as I recall the New Zealand K9 receivers had an isolated power supply, so that option was probably designed-in to the K9 range from the start. (Although I am mystified as to why, in the 1970s, when DC mains had virtually disappeared, Philips would want to from good practice for AC mains-operated equipment, i.e. an isolated power supply. Or in other words, why wasn't an isolated power supply used for all production?)

But the audio and video ins and outs and their associated circuitry for the LDH 2300 seem to be an afterthought, mounted in the box attached to the back.

Cheers,

Maarten · 29th Feb 2012, 1:26 am

A non-isolated supply was probably cheaper to manufacture. I've never seen a K9 or K11 with mains isolation, so I would be very interested in any schematics or detailed pictures of one.

The in/out section of the LDH2300 probably looks like an afterthought because it was one. LDH-equipment was made by the electro-acoustics (ELA) division so it was probably a standard X26K201 set (the front looks exactly like one) bought in by ELA from the relevant consumer products division and then modified.

The later K11 did have an optional A/V input (but I never saw one either), probably using optocouplers.

In the K12Z chassis, the usual non-isolated buck converter power supply of the normal K12i chassis was replaced with a flyback converter power supply for isolation.

The KT3, K30, K35 chassis weren't isolated either, except K35 versions with a SCART socket that had a full blown 50Hz mains seperation transformer built in (a seemingly expensive solution).

Then, the K40 and KT4 were available with at least 3 different power supply units, one version not having mains isolation.

After that, most large screen sets had an isolated flyback converter while most small screen sets still used the old non-isolated buck topology. The GR1AX chassis (approximately 1989-1992) was, as far as I know, the last European non-isolated chassis.

Synchrodyne · 29th Feb 2012, 6:12 am

Perhaps one of the New Zealand members would be able to provide details of the NZ version of the K9.

In the 1970s I did have some corrspondence with Philips NZ about fitting an audio line output to the K9. As I recall the response included comment about a transformer being available for the purpose in Europe, which suggests a non-isolated power supply. That was rather reminiscent of B&O practice, where the audio isolating transformer was available as an accessory for some of its models. But for the NZ K9, simply taking a feed from across the volume control (and into a load of around 100k) worked quite well.

Cheers,

AndrewM · 29th Feb 2012, 7:34 am

I'm a bit late joining the Philips party that's happening here but I can help with supplying technical documentation and pictures as time allows. I have all the manuals for the Australian versions of the K9, K11, K12, KT2, KT3 and KL9 (similar to the K30-35) chassis.
I also have scanned recently the service manuals for G22K511 and G25K512 (G6 chassis), a photocopied G9 manual and K8 chassis manual.

What was the difference between the K8 and K8D chassis? I also scanned a photocopied version of the K8D manual.

Here is the schematic of the Australian (and possibly New Zealand) K9 power supply.
I can take a picture of the supply sometime if needed.

Andrew

AndrewM · 29th Feb 2012, 7:41 am

Forgot to mention, that I'm in the process of doing a thorough documentation of the Australian built Philips colour models (1974 to 1987) and it's at the stage where I have a full model listing and pictures of most of the different models. If Robert is interested in having a branch for the Australian Philips models on his site I'm more than happy to provide him with my research.

Andrew

Philips Fan · 29th Feb 2012, 8:29 am

Hi Andrew

Never too late to join the party mate!

It sounds like we need to collaborate. I will PM you.

Kind regards

Robert

AndrewM · 29th Feb 2012, 9:28 am

Sounds like a splendid idea!

Andrew

hans · 29th Feb 2012, 11:30 am

A mains isolated set needs a beefier supply transformer, but not by much. Other set makers had the an insolated supply as an option. Why Philips didn't use an isolated supply as standard and dropped the audio transformer puzzles me. May be it was easier to bould a high impedance audio amp?

Maarten · 29th Feb 2012, 12:39 pm

Thanks for the K9 isolated schematic. It doesn't look all that different from the usual buck converter version.

The difference between the K8 and K8D chassis, is mainly in the signal stages. The decoder used a TAA630 (?) IC, and over all less tubes were used. A wired remote was optional, in some models touch buttons instead of mechanical presets were used.

AndrewM · 1st Mar 2012, 6:10 am

The isolated K9 power supply is very similar to the standard power supply as you say. It is a fairly compact unit and I'll try an take a picture of it in the next few days.

Just checked the K8D schematic. It does use a TAA630 decoder IC. Thanks for the information.

I have accepted Roberts kind offer of putting a section on his Philips website covering the Australian models so I'll gradually be adding content in the coming weeks.

Philips Fan · 1st Mar 2012, 8:39 am

We all look forward to it Andrew. I really do appreciate as much participation as possible. You can imagine its quite a slog!

Again I want to thank all those who have provided data FOC. As always, I will the pay postage for any printed matter. Hi-Res scans and photos are always 1st choice where possible and full credit is always given to contributors to the site.

Kindest regards

Robert

Hampus · 2nd Mar 2012, 1:23 am

Nice site!

I have a Philips K9 my grandfather bought to me at a flea market 20 years ago, it's still going strong. It has that kind of touch buttons. Would you want some pics of that TV to use on your site?

Synchrodyne · 4th Mar 2012, 2:52 am

I wonder how many different TV transmission systems the various Philips K9 variants covered?

Obviously systems B and G for the European market, and system H which is covered by system G capability even if no adjustment is made to take account of the wider vestigial sideband of system H. The European version would also have covered New Zealand and Australia, in the NZ case with VHF tuner only (as I recall the tuning range was marked channels (E)2 through 12, although it tuned down to NZ1) and the Australia case with its different channel set and possibly different IFs.

The LDH 2300 monitor-receiver UK version shows that system I was also catered for.

Was there a French version, covering systems E and L/L’, or perhaps L/L’ alone?

And at the time it was released, I think system C was still operational in Belgium, so that could have been in-scope, as well.

Any others?

Cheers,

Philips Fan · 4th Mar 2012, 6:57 am

Hi Hampus1982

I would love some hi-res pictures of the K9 both inside and out if you can. Also any supporting text you have would be very useful too. I'll put your K9 infos in the collectors sets section:

http://www.philipstv.org.uk/blog/?page_id=286

Please email me on the website.

Thanks

Robert

Maarten · 5th Mar 2012, 12:42 am

@Synchrodyne: The closest thing to a K9 for France would be the KM2 multisystem chassis, designed by the Dutch design group and based on the K9. Philips France did their own (presumably at some point single standard) chassis as well, their chassis were numbered TVCx if I recall correctly. Maybe our forum member jhalphen can tell more about this.

GLENZ32 · 5th Mar 2012, 12:49 am

Hi Robert, hope to get those photos of the NZ K9 up in the next few days as per the other thread. Will be interesting to compare with its European counterparts

Have also sent you a PM.
Great to see AndrewM creating a section the Australian models, infact I'm pretty certain the NZ/Aus models are very similar, if not the same.
Cheers!
Glen

Philips Fan · 5th Mar 2012, 7:45 am

Hi Glen
Have sent you some ideas by PM.
Regards
Robert

Synchrodyne · 11th Mar 2012, 7:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maarten

@Synchrodyne: The closest thing to a K9 for France would be the KM2 multisystem chassis, designed by the Dutch design group and based on the K9. Philips France did their own (presumably at some point single standard) chassis as well, their chassis were numbered TVCx if I recall correctly. Maybe our forum member jhalphen can tell more about this.

Thanks, Maarten. Which transmission systems was the KM2 designed for?

Cheers,

Maarten · 11th Mar 2012, 5:57 pm

I found a (rather poor) scan of the KM2 schematic at electromaniacs.com. According to the table it does all French and Belgian systems:

Lines 625/819
Picture mod. POS/NEG
Sound IF 5,5/6,5/11,15
Sound mod. FM/AM
System PAL/SECAM
Backporch 25%/30%/75%

The table in the schematic lists the relevant combinations, other combinations could conceivably be obtained by minor modifications to the system switching logic.

27th Feb 2012, 10:08 pm	#21
hans Heptode Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oslo, Norway. Posts: 632	Re: Early Philips Colour Television I would think this is a mains isolated K9. Probably with a different power supply.

29th Feb 2012, 12:41 am	#22
Synchrodyne Nonode Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Papamoa Beach, Bay of Plenty, New Zealand Posts: 2,944	Re: Early Philips Colour Television I would expect an isolated power supply for a monitor-receiver. That said, as I recall the New Zealand K9 receivers had an isolated power supply, so that option was probably designed-in to the K9 range from the start. (Although I am mystified as to why, in the 1970s, when DC mains had virtually disappeared, Philips would want to from good practice for AC mains-operated equipment, i.e. an isolated power supply. Or in other words, why wasn't an isolated power supply used for all production?) But the audio and video ins and outs and their associated circuitry for the LDH 2300 seem to be an afterthought, mounted in the box attached to the back. Cheers,

29th Feb 2012, 1:26 am	#23
Maarten Dekatron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Haarlem, Netherlands Posts: 4,203	Re: Early Philips Colour Television A non-isolated supply was probably cheaper to manufacture. I've never seen a K9 or K11 with mains isolation, so I would be very interested in any schematics or detailed pictures of one. The in/out section of the LDH2300 probably looks like an afterthought because it was one. LDH-equipment was made by the electro-acoustics (ELA) division so it was probably a standard X26K201 set (the front looks exactly like one) bought in by ELA from the relevant consumer products division and then modified. The later K11 did have an optional A/V input (but I never saw one either), probably using optocouplers. In the K12Z chassis, the usual non-isolated buck converter power supply of the normal K12i chassis was replaced with a flyback converter power supply for isolation. The KT3, K30, K35 chassis weren't isolated either, except K35 versions with a SCART socket that had a full blown 50Hz mains seperation transformer built in (a seemingly expensive solution). Then, the K40 and KT4 were available with at least 3 different power supply units, one version not having mains isolation. After that, most large screen sets had an isolated flyback converter while most small screen sets still used the old non-isolated buck topology. The GR1AX chassis (approximately 1989-1992) was, as far as I know, the last European non-isolated chassis. Last edited by Maarten; 29th Feb 2012 at 1:34 am.

29th Feb 2012, 6:12 am	#24
Synchrodyne Nonode Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Papamoa Beach, Bay of Plenty, New Zealand Posts: 2,944	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Perhaps one of the New Zealand members would be able to provide details of the NZ version of the K9. In the 1970s I did have some corrspondence with Philips NZ about fitting an audio line output to the K9. As I recall the response included comment about a transformer being available for the purpose in Europe, which suggests a non-isolated power supply. That was rather reminiscent of B&O practice, where the audio isolating transformer was available as an accessory for some of its models. But for the NZ K9, simply taking a feed from across the volume control (and into a load of around 100k) worked quite well. Cheers,

29th Feb 2012, 7:34 am	#25
AndrewM Pentode Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 115	Re: Early Philips Colour Television I'm a bit late joining the Philips party that's happening here but I can help with supplying technical documentation and pictures as time allows. I have all the manuals for the Australian versions of the K9, K11, K12, KT2, KT3 and KL9 (similar to the K30-35) chassis. I also have scanned recently the service manuals for G22K511 and G25K512 (G6 chassis), a photocopied G9 manual and K8 chassis manual. What was the difference between the K8 and K8D chassis? I also scanned a photocopied version of the K8D manual. Here is the schematic of the Australian (and possibly New Zealand) K9 power supply. I can take a picture of the supply sometime if needed. Andrew Attached Thumbnails

29th Feb 2012, 7:41 am	#26
AndrewM Pentode Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 115	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Forgot to mention, that I'm in the process of doing a thorough documentation of the Australian built Philips colour models (1974 to 1987) and it's at the stage where I have a full model listing and pictures of most of the different models. If Robert is interested in having a branch for the Australian Philips models on his site I'm more than happy to provide him with my research. Andrew

29th Feb 2012, 8:29 am	#27
Philips Fan Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Suffolk, UK. Posts: 260	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Hi Andrew Never too late to join the party mate! It sounds like we need to collaborate. I will PM you. Kind regards Robert

29th Feb 2012, 9:28 am	#28
AndrewM Pentode Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 115	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Sounds like a splendid idea! Andrew

29th Feb 2012, 11:30 am	#29
hans Heptode Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oslo, Norway. Posts: 632	Re: Early Philips Colour Television A mains isolated set needs a beefier supply transformer, but not by much. Other set makers had the an insolated supply as an option. Why Philips didn't use an isolated supply as standard and dropped the audio transformer puzzles me. May be it was easier to bould a high impedance audio amp?

29th Feb 2012, 12:39 pm	#30
Maarten Dekatron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Haarlem, Netherlands Posts: 4,203	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Thanks for the K9 isolated schematic. It doesn't look all that different from the usual buck converter version. The difference between the K8 and K8D chassis, is mainly in the signal stages. The decoder used a TAA630 (?) IC, and over all less tubes were used. A wired remote was optional, in some models touch buttons instead of mechanical presets were used.

1st Mar 2012, 6:10 am	#31
AndrewM Pentode Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 115	Re: Early Philips Colour Television The isolated K9 power supply is very similar to the standard power supply as you say. It is a fairly compact unit and I'll try an take a picture of it in the next few days. Just checked the K8D schematic. It does use a TAA630 decoder IC. Thanks for the information. I have accepted Roberts kind offer of putting a section on his Philips website covering the Australian models so I'll gradually be adding content in the coming weeks.

1st Mar 2012, 8:39 am	#32
Philips Fan Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Suffolk, UK. Posts: 260	Re: Early Philips Colour Television We all look forward to it Andrew. I really do appreciate as much participation as possible. You can imagine its quite a slog! Again I want to thank all those who have provided data FOC. As always, I will the pay postage for any printed matter. Hi-Res scans and photos are always 1st choice where possible and full credit is always given to contributors to the site. Kindest regards Robert

2nd Mar 2012, 1:23 am	#33
Hampus Pentode Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sandviken, Sweden Posts: 233	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Nice site! I have a Philips K9 my grandfather bought to me at a flea market 20 years ago, it's still going strong. It has that kind of touch buttons. Would you want some pics of that TV to use on your site?

4th Mar 2012, 2:52 am	#34
Synchrodyne Nonode Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Papamoa Beach, Bay of Plenty, New Zealand Posts: 2,944	Re: Early Philips Colour Television I wonder how many different TV transmission systems the various Philips K9 variants covered? Obviously systems B and G for the European market, and system H which is covered by system G capability even if no adjustment is made to take account of the wider vestigial sideband of system H. The European version would also have covered New Zealand and Australia, in the NZ case with VHF tuner only (as I recall the tuning range was marked channels (E)2 through 12, although it tuned down to NZ1) and the Australia case with its different channel set and possibly different IFs. The LDH 2300 monitor-receiver UK version shows that system I was also catered for. Was there a French version, covering systems E and L/L’, or perhaps L/L’ alone? And at the time it was released, I think system C was still operational in Belgium, so that could have been in-scope, as well. Any others? Cheers,

4th Mar 2012, 6:57 am	#35
Philips Fan Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Suffolk, UK. Posts: 260	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Hi Hampus1982 I would love some hi-res pictures of the K9 both inside and out if you can. Also any supporting text you have would be very useful too. I'll put your K9 infos in the collectors sets section: http://www.philipstv.org.uk/blog/?page_id=286 Please email me on the website. Thanks Robert

5th Mar 2012, 12:42 am	#36
Maarten Dekatron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Haarlem, Netherlands Posts: 4,203	Re: Early Philips Colour Television @Synchrodyne: The closest thing to a K9 for France would be the KM2 multisystem chassis, designed by the Dutch design group and based on the K9. Philips France did their own (presumably at some point single standard) chassis as well, their chassis were numbered TVCx if I recall correctly. Maybe our forum member jhalphen can tell more about this.

5th Mar 2012, 12:49 am	#37
GLENZ32 Hexode Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 289	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Hi Robert, hope to get those photos of the NZ K9 up in the next few days as per the other thread. Will be interesting to compare with its European counterparts Have also sent you a PM. Great to see AndrewM creating a section the Australian models, infact I'm pretty certain the NZ/Aus models are very similar, if not the same. Cheers! Glen __________________ Visit my Vintage TV & Radio Page - http://nzvintagetvradio.blogspot.com/

5th Mar 2012, 7:45 am	#38
Philips Fan Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Suffolk, UK. Posts: 260	Re: Early Philips Colour Television Hi Glen Have sent you some ideas by PM. Regards Robert

11th Mar 2012, 5:57 pm	#40
Maarten Dekatron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Haarlem, Netherlands Posts: 4,203	Re: Early Philips Colour Television I found a (rather poor) scan of the KM2 schematic at electromaniacs.com. According to the table it does all French and Belgian systems: Lines 625/819 Picture mod. POS/NEG Sound IF 5,5/6,5/11,15 Sound mod. FM/AM System PAL/SECAM Backporch 25%/30%/75% The table in the schematic lists the relevant combinations, other combinations could conceivably be obtained by minor modifications to the system switching logic.