Sticky Shed Syndrome - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

jfingram · 21st Feb 2007, 5:01 pm

Hi to all,

Having just become a very new newcomer (Late in Life) to reel to reel following my purchase of an Akai 4000DB, I have stumbled on a phenomena called "Sticky Shed Syndrome" and thinks I have it on a TDK back treated tape.

This has coated my capstan, pinch roller and heads with a waxy brown crud. Reading what I can on the net about it, it would appear to be a very common problem with older tapes. What I can't find is if this is limited to certain tapes or to all tapes over ten years. Does anyone out there have a definitive list of tapes that are affected by this, before I end up buying shares in an IPA supplier

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

john

BassoonBloke · 21st Feb 2007, 8:13 pm

Hello John,

I think that this happens more because of where the tapes were stored as opposed to the make of tape, however i may be wrong and there may be particular makes that other people know of that are more prone to it.
I've had audio and reel to reel video tapes that have been stored in very slightly damp or cold places that developed this problem.
I find that i can physically feel the tape surface texture as 'soft' and therefore likely to shed its oxide all over the place.

These are only my views, but i hope they are of some interest.

cheers,
Alan.

reelguy · 21st Feb 2007, 9:14 pm

This problem is more common with tapes made in the mid 70s and isnt
confined to one make of tape. I think Ampex being one of the worst culprits. Something to do with the lack of Whale oil as a lubricant in manufacture. { True !}
A lot of tapes from the 50s and later 60s are still OK today.
Back coated tapes such as you mention dont work at all on early
recorders. And not on one motor recorders such as the Akai 4000DB, Sony 377s etc either.
If the tape contains a recording that you need save then you will
need to bake the tape . It isnt a permanent cure though.
Info from the reeltoreel forum on yahoo.
. It is possible to buy "New" tape but I dont know
what its like.. Again, Info from the Reeltoreel Forum.
Regards Peter W Reelguy.
PS, You will need to clean all the muck off and not use that tape
again. Hope this helps

TIMTAPE · 22nd Feb 2007, 12:07 am

For a list of susceptible tapes try the homerecording .com forum in the Analog Only section and do a search for sticky shed.
Yes it's important to identify the tape as needing baking or not. Ampex tapes like 456/406/407/ are bad cases. But it also depends on how well the tape was stored.
Never even play an affected tape without proper treatment.

Tim.

arjoll · 22nd Feb 2007, 11:00 am

I was going to recommend homerecording.com as well but Timtape bet me to it.

Generally sticky shed only affected backcoated tape. I haven't seen any ports of Maxell or Zonal tape having problems, but Ampex and 3M can be quite bad. I've struck 1/2" Ampex 456 from '93 with shed, but have Maxell 35-90 from '79 with no problems. Ampex after '95 or so and all QUantegy should be fine.

If you've got a few tapes to transfer and you're not sure of their state it would be a good idea to do invest in a food dehydrator and do some googling.

oldman · 24th Feb 2007, 1:12 pm

Hi, I will try and send you some info on how to DIY your problem. I will do this via a .pdf on PM and if you do not receive it let me know
Regards
John

brenellic2000 · 24th Feb 2007, 4:39 pm

Hi,

I agree with all the above especially regarding 1970s Ampex tape, though whether the recent/latest (former Ampex/3M) "Quantegy" tape are afflicted remains to be seen!

Even though quite a lot of 'sticky' oxide is lost, there is usually enough residue to allow a reasonable copy to be made onto another tape if you have some precious recordings..... for which you'll need a second tape deck!

I would recommend you clean/bake the 'sticky' tape and copy it onto BASF LH35 stock which has proven to be a very stable, high quality tape indeed. 'New old stock' BASF LH is often offered but while these are over 5 years old, it doesn't make much difference to normal domestic recordings on say an Akai or Sony, but 'old age' is frowned upon for serious mastering work.

As regards carbon matt-backed tapes, this is only really a problem on those older decks which use a microswitch end-of-tape pin against which the rougher matt-coated back rubs and will, over a long time, wear away the metal!

Good luck
Barry

One

jfingram · 24th Feb 2007, 5:23 pm

Hi To All,

A million thanks for all your quick responses. This has helped a lot.
Not being a master recorder and just doing it for fun and ease of putting all my singles on one long playing medium, I have been buying older second hand tapes to use, (also you can get some interesting old recordings on these) I now have an idea what to look for. I suppose the old addage is 'you get what you pay for', so if I get a few dodgy tapes then no real great loss.
The only important tapes I had were recordings my late dad did in the early 60's which are fine

Sticky shed syndrome has only affected one second hand tape I have bought recently so far. Had a couple of stretched ones that warbled, so file 13 for them also.

Again, thank you all for the friendly and helpful responses

John

Zulu95 · 24th Feb 2007, 9:04 pm

A college recording studio I did some work for some time ago ran into this problem with a batch of their archive tapes. As mentioned it was Ampax tape from the 70's. The recording engineer was sitting cleaning tapes and then re-recording to digital 12 hours a day for about 6 months.

jfingram · 25th Feb 2007, 12:36 am

Hi John,

Don't know if you have sent the .pdf file but as yet nothing has arrived. Thanks for your help.

Regards

John

Matthew · 26th Feb 2007, 5:59 pm

Of all my reel tapes, only one has shown the classic signs of sticky shed syndrome, and that was the 'newest' - a 1970's BASF tape. Shame I didn't have a photo of it to warn buyers or owners of these tapes, but I seem to remember it having a black and white labelled design on the logo as opposed to the old orange/red ones, which all work fine. All of the 1950's/1960's tapes are still in superb order.

ben · 27th Feb 2007, 12:26 am

I've had problems with:
-LOTS of Ampex supplied on 7" (back coated)
-scotch: Audio 90, 175, 215 . Tapes I had were made between roughly 1973-1979.
-some BASF LH (??) 5" spooled tapes. they had smoked black plastic snap cases and spools and were made around 1980. label was black and white as mentioned by Matthew. They left brown crud all over the tape path but did not squeal.

never had probs with EMI, Philips, AGFA, Kodak or older BASF and scotch. Touch wood!

brenellic2000 · 1st Mar 2007, 12:27 pm

Hi,

That's interesting news about the late 1970s 'black BASF' stock - so far, touch wood, mine are OK - and I've bought lots of them year!

The best all rounder, to my mind, remains the old 'brown' LGS35 and LH35 stock. The 1970s Ilford-Zonal is a very stable tape too.

I've been trying out some 'new old stock' Sychrotape of the 1970s - this is very squeaky, yet when I used Synchrotape in the days of short trousers and Billy Bunter goggles, they were OK. I know their source varied, but is later Synchrotape also suspect?

Best wishes
Barry

ben · 6th Nov 2007, 10:52 pm

sadly many of my scotch 175, 215 and Audio90 tapes have developed sticky shed

anyone else had this problem with the above?

ben

jamesperrett · 8th Nov 2007, 2:03 pm

What colour is the residue? Sometimes the problem with Scotch tapes is the lubricant which separates out rather than the binder breakdown problem that affects Ampex. The lubricant residue tends to be a light colour.

Cheers

James.

ben · 9th Nov 2007, 2:16 pm

on the older tapes like 175 , thick black gunk.
on the later (brown) tapes like audio 90 there's not so much residue, it is brown. definitely seems like sticky shed.

I had some Thats! metal c90s and some BASF chrome which left white residue. not sure exactly what that was..... binder breakdown or lubricant?

Andy1970 · 9th Nov 2007, 8:28 pm

No time like the present to master all my old ampex tapes onto cd or other tapes, so i thought. Unfortunately, my 4 ampex 1/2 inch tapes that were ok 6 months ago are now unplayable, despite much care taken with storage. Totaly glued up. Never had any such problems with the scotch tapes, however, they do have very occasional dropouts.
Best check yours if they contain anything important.

arjoll · 9th Nov 2007, 9:17 pm

Be very cautious when playing any backcoated Ampex tape manufactured before mid-1994, especially if it contains important material - I've had 1/2" tape from late '93 shed.

At the first sign of any shedding stop the transfer and bake the tape - there's plenty of info online, and food dehydrators are ideal for the task.

Re the Scotch/3M tape, I've heard reports of shed from certain types manufactured in a similar timeperiod to the dodgy Ampex, and apparently some Agfa (I think) tape is reported with similar problems.

I have not heard of non-backcoated tape shedding, and acetate doesn't shed but can get vinegar syndrome (more serious as its irreversable and can spread amonst tapes). Good old Maxell tape doesn't shed either (I don't feel quite as silly buying 35-90B instead of 457 in the early 90's now

)

keesgrijpink · 17th Jan 2008, 12:28 pm

Hi John,

Sticky shed is a very common and easy to solve problem if you are looking for a solution visit the Graham Newton web site http://audio-restoration.com/menu.php and checkout " Baking Magnetic Tape To Overcome The Sticky-Shed Syndrome".
And you are also more than welcome to our website (in Dutch and English) with information how to overcome this problem. http://www.meertens.nl/meertensnet/w...sel=138820&ql=

Kees

RODALCO · 19th Jan 2008, 8:20 am

I have some very bad Ampex 292 tapes.
These were from late 1970's, early 80's and back coated.
Light blue box, transparant reel with 3 pearshaped holes.

After running the tape on fast rewind through clean cotton tissues i can remove lots of the black powder.
The tape plays well and the VU meters give good 100%, 0 db readings.

Although after 10 minutes or so more black powder will need to be removed from the recorder heads.

My best experience is with Maxell, TDK and Scotch tapes, never had a problem with those.

21st Feb 2007, 5:01 pm	#1
jfingram Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Southport Posts: 3	Sticky Shed Syndrome Hi to all, Having just become a very new newcomer (Late in Life) to reel to reel following my purchase of an Akai 4000DB, I have stumbled on a phenomena called "Sticky Shed Syndrome" and thinks I have it on a TDK back treated tape. This has coated my capstan, pinch roller and heads with a waxy brown crud. Reading what I can on the net about it, it would appear to be a very common problem with older tapes. What I can't find is if this is limited to certain tapes or to all tapes over ten years. Does anyone out there have a definitive list of tapes that are affected by this, before I end up buying shares in an IPA supplier Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks john

21st Feb 2007, 8:13 pm	#2
BassoonBloke Pentode Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: East London, UK. Posts: 231	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Hello John, I think that this happens more because of where the tapes were stored as opposed to the make of tape, however i may be wrong and there may be particular makes that other people know of that are more prone to it. I've had audio and reel to reel video tapes that have been stored in very slightly damp or cold places that developed this problem. I find that i can physically feel the tape surface texture as 'soft' and therefore likely to shed its oxide all over the place. These are only my views, but i hope they are of some interest. cheers, Alan.

21st Feb 2007, 9:14 pm	#3
reelguy Heptode Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bexhill on Sea, East Sussex, UK. Posts: 746	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome This problem is more common with tapes made in the mid 70s and isnt confined to one make of tape. I think Ampex being one of the worst culprits. Something to do with the lack of Whale oil as a lubricant in manufacture. { True !} A lot of tapes from the 50s and later 60s are still OK today. Back coated tapes such as you mention dont work at all on early recorders. And not on one motor recorders such as the Akai 4000DB, Sony 377s etc either. If the tape contains a recording that you need save then you will need to bake the tape . It isnt a permanent cure though. Info from the reeltoreel forum on yahoo. . It is possible to buy "New" tape but I dont know what its like.. Again, Info from the Reeltoreel Forum. Regards Peter W Reelguy. PS, You will need to clean all the muck off and not use that tape again. Hope this helps

22nd Feb 2007, 12:07 am	#4
TIMTAPE Octode Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 1,970	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome For a list of susceptible tapes try the homerecording .com forum in the Analog Only section and do a search for sticky shed. Yes it's important to identify the tape as needing baking or not. Ampex tapes like 456/406/407/ are bad cases. But it also depends on how well the tape was stored. Never even play an affected tape without proper treatment. Tim.

22nd Feb 2007, 11:00 am	#5
arjoll Dekatron Join Date: May 2006 Location: Invercargill, New Zealand Posts: 3,458	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome I was going to recommend homerecording.com as well but Timtape bet me to it. Generally sticky shed only affected backcoated tape. I haven't seen any ports of Maxell or Zonal tape having problems, but Ampex and 3M can be quite bad. I've struck 1/2" Ampex 456 from '93 with shed, but have Maxell 35-90 from '79 with no problems. Ampex after '95 or so and all QUantegy should be fine. If you've got a few tapes to transfer and you're not sure of their state it would be a good idea to do invest in a food dehydrator and do some googling.

24th Feb 2007, 1:12 pm	#6
oldman Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Clacton-on-Sea Posts: 6	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Hi, I will try and send you some info on how to DIY your problem. I will do this via a .pdf on PM and if you do not receive it let me know Regards John

24th Feb 2007, 4:39 pm	#7
brenellic2000 Octode Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK. Posts: 1,647	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Hi, I agree with all the above especially regarding 1970s Ampex tape, though whether the recent/latest (former Ampex/3M) "Quantegy" tape are afflicted remains to be seen! Even though quite a lot of 'sticky' oxide is lost, there is usually enough residue to allow a reasonable copy to be made onto another tape if you have some precious recordings..... for which you'll need a second tape deck! I would recommend you clean/bake the 'sticky' tape and copy it onto BASF LH35 stock which has proven to be a very stable, high quality tape indeed. 'New old stock' BASF LH is often offered but while these are over 5 years old, it doesn't make much difference to normal domestic recordings on say an Akai or Sony, but 'old age' is frowned upon for serious mastering work. As regards carbon matt-backed tapes, this is only really a problem on those older decks which use a microswitch end-of-tape pin against which the rougher matt-coated back rubs and will, over a long time, wear away the metal! Good luck Barry One

24th Feb 2007, 5:23 pm	#8
jfingram Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Southport Posts: 3	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Hi To All, A million thanks for all your quick responses. This has helped a lot. Not being a master recorder and just doing it for fun and ease of putting all my singles on one long playing medium, I have been buying older second hand tapes to use, (also you can get some interesting old recordings on these) I now have an idea what to look for. I suppose the old addage is 'you get what you pay for', so if I get a few dodgy tapes then no real great loss. The only important tapes I had were recordings my late dad did in the early 60's which are fine Sticky shed syndrome has only affected one second hand tape I have bought recently so far. Had a couple of stretched ones that warbled, so file 13 for them also. Again, thank you all for the friendly and helpful responses John

24th Feb 2007, 9:04 pm	#9
Zulu95 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Savannah, Georgia, USA. Posts: 31	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome A college recording studio I did some work for some time ago ran into this problem with a batch of their archive tapes. As mentioned it was Ampax tape from the 70's. The recording engineer was sitting cleaning tapes and then re-recording to digital 12 hours a day for about 6 months.

25th Feb 2007, 12:36 am	#10
jfingram Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Southport Posts: 3	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Hi John, Don't know if you have sent the .pdf file but as yet nothing has arrived. Thanks for your help. Regards John

26th Feb 2007, 5:59 pm	#11
Matthew Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Thetford Posts: 5	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Of all my reel tapes, only one has shown the classic signs of sticky shed syndrome, and that was the 'newest' - a 1970's BASF tape. Shame I didn't have a photo of it to warn buyers or owners of these tapes, but I seem to remember it having a black and white labelled design on the logo as opposed to the old orange/red ones, which all work fine. All of the 1950's/1960's tapes are still in superb order.

27th Feb 2007, 12:26 am	#12
ben Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Madrid, Spain / Wirral, UK Posts: 7,498	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome I've had problems with: -LOTS of Ampex supplied on 7" (back coated) -scotch: Audio 90, 175, 215 . Tapes I had were made between roughly 1973-1979. -some BASF LH (??) 5" spooled tapes. they had smoked black plastic snap cases and spools and were made around 1980. label was black and white as mentioned by Matthew. They left brown crud all over the tape path but did not squeal. never had probs with EMI, Philips, AGFA, Kodak or older BASF and scotch. Touch wood!

1st Mar 2007, 12:27 pm	#13
brenellic2000 Octode Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK. Posts: 1,647	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Hi, That's interesting news about the late 1970s 'black BASF' stock - so far, touch wood, mine are OK - and I've bought lots of them year! The best all rounder, to my mind, remains the old 'brown' LGS35 and LH35 stock. The 1970s Ilford-Zonal is a very stable tape too. I've been trying out some 'new old stock' Sychrotape of the 1970s - this is very squeaky, yet when I used Synchrotape in the days of short trousers and Billy Bunter goggles, they were OK. I know their source varied, but is later Synchrotape also suspect? Best wishes Barry

6th Nov 2007, 10:52 pm	#14
ben Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Madrid, Spain / Wirral, UK Posts: 7,498	Re: brands of tape now and in the past? sadly many of my scotch 175, 215 and Audio90 tapes have developed sticky shed anyone else had this problem with the above? ben

8th Nov 2007, 2:03 pm	#15
jamesperrett Octode Join Date: May 2007 Location: Liss, Hampshire, UK. Posts: 1,875	Re: brands of tape now and in the past? What colour is the residue? Sometimes the problem with Scotch tapes is the lubricant which separates out rather than the binder breakdown problem that affects Ampex. The lubricant residue tends to be a light colour. Cheers James.

9th Nov 2007, 2:16 pm	#16
ben Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Madrid, Spain / Wirral, UK Posts: 7,498	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome on the older tapes like 175 , thick black gunk. on the later (brown) tapes like audio 90 there's not so much residue, it is brown. definitely seems like sticky shed. I had some Thats! metal c90s and some BASF chrome which left white residue. not sure exactly what that was..... binder breakdown or lubricant?

9th Nov 2007, 8:28 pm	#17
Andy1970 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: gateshead Posts: 40	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome No time like the present to master all my old ampex tapes onto cd or other tapes, so i thought. Unfortunately, my 4 ampex 1/2 inch tapes that were ok 6 months ago are now unplayable, despite much care taken with storage. Totaly glued up. Never had any such problems with the scotch tapes, however, they do have very occasional dropouts. Best check yours if they contain anything important.

9th Nov 2007, 9:17 pm	#18
arjoll Dekatron Join Date: May 2006 Location: Invercargill, New Zealand Posts: 3,458	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Be very cautious when playing any backcoated Ampex tape manufactured before mid-1994, especially if it contains important material - I've had 1/2" tape from late '93 shed. At the first sign of any shedding stop the transfer and bake the tape - there's plenty of info online, and food dehydrators are ideal for the task. Re the Scotch/3M tape, I've heard reports of shed from certain types manufactured in a similar timeperiod to the dodgy Ampex, and apparently some Agfa (I think) tape is reported with similar problems. I have not heard of non-backcoated tape shedding, and acetate doesn't shed but can get vinegar syndrome (more serious as its irreversable and can spread amonst tapes). Good old Maxell tape doesn't shed either (I don't feel quite as silly buying 35-90B instead of 457 in the early 90's now )

17th Jan 2008, 12:28 pm	#19
keesgrijpink Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: netherlands amsterdam Posts: 3	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome Hi John, Sticky shed is a very common and easy to solve problem if you are looking for a solution visit the Graham Newton web site http://audio-restoration.com/menu.php and checkout " Baking Magnetic Tape To Overcome The Sticky-Shed Syndrome". And you are also more than welcome to our website (in Dutch and English) with information how to overcome this problem. http://www.meertens.nl/meertensnet/w...sel=138820&ql= Kees

19th Jan 2008, 8:20 am	#20
RODALCO Tetrode Join Date: May 2007 Location: West Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 96	Re: Sticky Shed Syndrome I have some very bad Ampex 292 tapes. These were from late 1970's, early 80's and back coated. Light blue box, transparant reel with 3 pearshaped holes. After running the tape on fast rewind through clean cotton tissues i can remove lots of the black powder. The tape plays well and the VU meters give good 100%, 0 db readings. Although after 10 minutes or so more black powder will need to be removed from the recorder heads. My best experience is with Maxell, TDK and Scotch tapes, never had a problem with those.