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Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment.

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Old 14th Sep 2015, 7:08 pm   #21
dave walsh
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

More good guidance there Jazz but there may be an assumption on here that your knowledge level is higher than it is. Sorry if I've got that wrong but you haven't really said

As Techman suggests, things can get a bit complicated. A vintage deck would be great but it's not plug in and play! You might have to settle for a modern 3 speed item, that can be linked in with a Rogers or other more modern amp, if you are doing it yourself. Something like a Goldring Lenco 75 Transcription Deck is between both extremes but they are not cheap.

Dave W
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Old 15th Sep 2015, 8:02 am   #22
thejazzageuk
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Thanks Techman, Nickthedentist and dave walsh. I only aim to play LPs on the deck, and none of mine are particularly valuable. Most are jazz from 50s/60s- so a mix of mono and stereo. However I wouldn’t want them to be damaged so the audio is ruined (I’ve read lots of conflicting advice about playing stereo records with mono cartridges).

I’m particularly grateful to techman for advice on the decks. The information that an RC80 maybe could offer stereo appears to make it the best candidate for me- it also looks fantastic. May be out of my price range in the initial stages but this look like a good final goal. (Just to be clear, my BD came with the BSR turntable in post 1- unfortunately the RC72 in post 9 is not mine). So my current thinking is a Rogers Cadet 3 with RC80. My level of expertise in valve sets is middling. I worked as an electrical design engineer at Jaguar Cars for 10 years- so it’s mainly 12V stuff. I have restored a Sonora Elegance with lots of help from Station X and a few others (still being used most days). Am currently working my way through Chas Miller’s ‘Valve Radio and Audio repair handbook’.
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Old 15th Sep 2015, 9:04 am   #23
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Just my tuppence worth:

Anything with a typical ceramic cartridge is going to A) Wear your records faster, and B) Not provide the best listening experience

If you're considering something like the Rogers, a robust magnetic cartridge like the Stanton 500 series, or the Shure M44 pickup would sound far better, and be kinder on the records too. These can often get on well with old auto changers, Im running a Stanton 500 on an RC 121 with no issues.

If you plan to stack records, remember also that tracking force varies up the record stack when using older spring loaded arms. It wasn't until later changers like the AT60, SL65 etc that you had counterweights involved. One of these would be lovely in terms of functionality but do look newer.

Ultimately whatever you do will be a compromise somewhere, you wont get modern high fidelity sound while maintaining vintage looks.
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Old 15th Sep 2015, 4:52 pm   #24
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

There is indeed a lot of claptrap in some quarters (although not on this forum) about mono and stereo records and cartridges. So here's a summary of the main points:

Mono records are only modulated laterally, that is the groove wiggles from side to side. There is some consequent vertical movement of the stylus, but this is ignored by a mono pickup or, indeed, a stereo pickup wired for mono.

Stereo records, on the other hand, are modulated both vertically and laterally, the vertical wiggles containing the difference between the two channels. A little algebra shows that the left and right signals are therefore recorded "on the slant" on their respective groove walls, hence references to the "45/45" system.

Historically, therefore, mono cartridges did not need to be designed with much in the way of vertical compliance, as there was no intended mod. in the vertical direction. Some of the more enlightened designs had some vertical compliance, because the vertical wiggles caused by pinch effect from the lateral mod would otherwise be ploughed through, causing distortion in the lateral wiggles. Thus the Ortofon C had a fair degree of vertical compliance and was kind to records, whereas the Tannoy Variluctance, notoriously, had virtually none, and was considerably less kind. Either used to play a stereo disc would damage it to some extent, not least because of the smaller tip required for a stereo disc, but a Variluctance would chew up the groove and spit out the bits.

Initially, both mono and stereo versions of a given release were sold, but the industry soon tired of the expense of "double inventory", as it was called, and resolved to make all future releases stereo only - this was around 1968, and I remember Woolworths clearing out mono discs dirt cheap - still have some of 'em! This necessitated the design of mono pickups with enough vertical compliance not to damage a stereo record, to allow the hordes of Dansette customers still to buy new releases. Also, as mentioned above, the groove radius of stereo discs was such that a tip of the order of 0.0007" was required, rather than 0.001".

I think the first of these pickups was the Walton M1, a distant relation of the Acos Hi-Light and Decca Deram. This failed commercially, but was soon superseded by compatible designs from Acos and BSR, among others. As a guide, you can reasonably assume that any pickup which first appeared post 1965-ish is compatible with a stereo disc, even if it is itself mono.

So, a stereo pickup will happily play both stereo and mono discs, the only proviso being that the outputs should be paralleled for mono operation and that older discs may play better with a .001" tip rather than a .0007".

A mono pickup prior to 1965 should not under any circumstances be used to play a stereo disc. Immediate and permanent damage will ensue. A later, compatible, pickup may be used without problems.

Incidentally, the modern drive towards mono pickups for mono records is basically audiophool poltroonery. If a stereo cartridge is any good in the first place, its paralleled outputs will match that of a mono pickup on a mono disc too closely to be worth worrying about. If you want to play 'fifties mono discs on your Ortofon C, there is no harm in it, but it is by no means essential.

And yes, Stanton 500s are good workhorses for old arms - tough as old boots and not bad sounding.
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Old 15th Sep 2015, 5:09 pm   #25
TonyDuell
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Re playing mono records with a stereo cartridge

The Decca ffss cartridge (the slide-on one used on the 'professional' arm, etc) doesn't have the normal L and R coils effectively detecting 45 degree motion of the stylus. From the pictures I've seen of the insides it has the 'lateral' coil which generates an L+R signal and a pair of identical 'vertical' coils which are so wired to add and subtract from the lateral coil, thus producing the L and R signals separately.

The cartridge has 4 connections. These are ground, the L output, R output (obvously) and the output of the lateral coil.The instruction leaflet says that when playing mono records to use that last output (only). The instructions for my Leak Varislope Stereo pre-amp give details for using a pickup cartridge with a seperate 'lateral' output (whether the Decca ffss is the only one I do not know), namely by wiring the L and R inputs to the PU 1 input sockets and the lateral coil to one of the PU 2 input sockets. It then says to play stereo records by selecting PU 1 and stereo, and mono records by PU2 and whichever input channel socket was used.

I could never detect the difference between using the lateral output and just paralleling the L and R outputs (as you would do for any other cartridge) but then I am not a good judge of such things. Was there a good reason for using the lateral coil output (only) for mono records? It's rather too early to be an audiophool idea I think.
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Old 15th Sep 2015, 5:33 pm   #26
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

The main reason for the design of the FFRR being as it is is that Decca originally intended to issue stereo discs with the left channel cut laterally and the right cut vertically (see Arthur Haddy's contribution to Gilbert Briggs' Audio Biographies). When it became apparent that Westrex and the rest were heading towards 45/45, Decca were quite happy to fall in with it to promote a common standard, as the pickup and cutter were easily adapted.

Thus the FFRR pickup has a lateral-only coil giving a mono output. You can parallel the L and R outputs, but in this case it simply eliminates any contribution from the vertical coil, giving the same result.
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Old 15th Sep 2015, 6:09 pm   #27
ToneArm
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

That is a lovely cabinet, worth the investment in effort to bring it back to life. I would keep with the decca speaker config and mono amp (keep the cost down!) but feed with a stereo cartridge in a decent tonearm.

I am a lenco fan, but a gl75 often goes over a hundred quid on a good day off ebay. The light platter version gl72, or the more vintage looking gl55, are less sought after and often cheaper. I dont think you would hear much difference between a 75 and a 72.

Good luck with your project!
Glyn
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Old 15th Sep 2015, 6:12 pm   #28
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Something like this Armstrong Jubilee Mk11 tuner amplifier would look good in that cabinet http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g8hqp/rad...s/Jubilee.html

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Old 17th Sep 2015, 7:11 pm   #29
thejazzageuk
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Thanks Nickthedentist, music-centre and Techman. Very grateful for the info on the RC80- this looks would look fabulous on the BD and even better if I could get a stereo output. I do understand that the BD will never give high fidelity audio, but hopefully with a Rogers Cadet 3 and the RC80 it could perform pretty well- and be able to take a 'modern' aux input. If I could get the unit back to original condition than I would do this, but as this seems unlikely the above combination would be a great alternative I think. I should point out that the RC72 in post 9 is not mine unfortunately- mine had the BSR deck in post 1 fitted. I guess an RC80 may be quite expensive so I may have to live with the BSR for a while. First step the cadet amp I think...
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 7:37 pm   #30
thejazzageuk
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

just wondering if something like this rogers amp may be suitable?
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 7:59 pm   #31
mark pirate
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

The Rogers would be a good choice, they sound good once given an overhaul.

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Old 21st Sep 2015, 10:13 pm   #32
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Looks good. You’ll have to have a trip over to Kent to get it!

I don’t know what extra power supply outputs are available on that amplifier (if any), but you’ll have to consider what power requirements are going to be needed for a radio tuner unit. That Rogers will have 6.3 volt heaters and any extra tuner supply will be of that voltage, whereas some of the old tuners have 4 volt valve heaters – probably the original Decca unit did. Then there’s the tuner HT requirements to think about.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 8:28 am   #33
mark pirate
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Going by the photo, there is an FM tuner to the left of the preamp. The tuner may have it's own power supply, I think I can see a transformer on the chassis.

With a decent record deck, it should sound very good and would do justice to the cabinet.

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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 8:32 am   #34
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

The Dynatron GR8 record player has a nice PP amp and doesn't sell for as much as a Rogers Cadet. Just a thought.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 7:32 pm   #35
thejazzageuk
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Thanks all. Just a quick question- is the amp in the GR8 mono or stereo?
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 7:51 pm   #36
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Yes, I think you’re right about the tuner, Mark. The trouble is that with that face plate I think it’s going to look a bit out of place in that cabinet - and against a period record changer of the RC80 variety.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 7:57 pm   #37
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

It is a mono amp. They did an add on unit which was just a speaker and amp for stereo.
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Old 23rd Sep 2015, 7:25 pm   #38
mark pirate
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Quote:
Yes, I think youíre right about the tuner, Mark. The trouble is that with that face plate I think itís going to look a bit out of place in that cabinet - and against a period record changer of the RC80 variety.
As a lot of radiograms were updated in the 1960's, maybe a good deck from the same period of the Rogers could be fitted?
It would certainly be kinder to stereo records than say an RC80.
I would fit something like a Connoisseur BD1, Although these were a later 1960's deck.

Mark
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Old 3rd Nov 2015, 10:20 am   #39
thejazzageuk
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

I've taken the advice from Herald1360 and purchased the Rogers Cadet 3 amp - the one talked about in

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/s...d.php?t=119548

I'm now looking at speaker options to go with this. My current thinking is to fit 2 x 8 inch speakers in the L and R locations, and insert a couple of tweeters into a baffle in the centre speaker location. However packaging space will be very tight once the radio is in place, so I though it would be a good idea to get a radio before fitting the speakers. I notice eBay site has a 'Decca Decola tuner' (item 181917607060). Does anyone know if this model was ever fitted to a Beau Decca- or perhaps can someone suggest where else I could look for a 'proper' one. Thank you
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Old 3rd Nov 2015, 1:12 pm   #40
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Default Re: Restore a Beau Decca

Its a type only fitted to the Larger Decola Gram I think.The Beau decca tuners I have seen have a wooden front surround ,I would keep looking on Ebay, one will turn up eventually.
Steve.
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