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Old 18th Sep 2020, 12:03 pm   #21
ajgriff
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

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I wonder if there would be 700 pounds worth of amplifier inside the Stereo 130? Also, I notice that the 'walnut' case adds another £100.

Alan
That is hardly a fair comparison. The general rule of thumb, is that the parts cost is around 20% of the selling price. The rest is made up of manufacturing cost, design overheads and marketing, and then the majority in shipping, distributor margins and sales margins.

Craig
I wasn't suggesting that 'worth' should be assessed on the cost of the component parts as that would be absurd. To my mind it's a question of whether or not it's possible to buy (new in this case) a comparable amplifier (performance, reliabilty, after sales etc) at a lower price. Personally I don't like paying for branding and big marketing budgets.

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Old 18th Sep 2020, 12:20 pm   #22
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

They are going for the high end market, which isn't particularly price sensitive. I wouldn't pay that much for an amp but plenty of people would - their money, their choice.

I suspect most of the purchasers will be in China.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 12:54 pm   #23
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

Looking at the spec, it's probably based on a pair of LM3886 or similar.

Nothing wrong with that - they are good ICs. You'd have to have a really good reason to "go discrete" with a power amplifier at that sort of output power these days - the usual reason is marketing.

This amplifier shares a fair bit with the Quad Vena, which is not all that surprising. Details of the inner workings of the Quad amp here: https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/info/hi-...produces177369

The Quad does use LM3886s, and the power amp specs are the same as the Leak, so that's a pretty strong clue.

The Leak adds tone controls - which is something that really should be strongly encouraged IMHO - and a dedicated headphone amp. I would imagine that the digital stuff is shared between the two - they've already done the work, so why not?
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 12:57 pm   #24
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

Just for comparison, the Quad 303 power amp in 1980 was £136, and the 33 preamp was £156. A total of £292

Correcting for RPI that is £1,283 today.

In comparison, the new Leak is not so expensive, and certainly not high-end, where you can easily spend getting on for £100k for a pre/power combination.

Craig
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 1:04 pm   #25
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

I understand from a source who wishes to remain anonymous that the Leak Stereo 130 is basically a Quad Vena inside, and the CDT CD player is basically an Audiolab.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 1:20 pm   #26
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

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I understand from a source who wishes to remain anonymous that the Leak Stereo 130 is basically a Quad Vena inside, and the CDT CD player is basically an Audiolab.
Seems like nothing changes then; badge engineering. HMV and Marconi, Philips, Cossor, Ekco and Stella, Pye and Invicta... it's been going on since the 30s. No-one seems to mind those.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 2:51 pm   #27
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

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I understand from a source who wishes to remain anonymous that the Leak Stereo 130 is basically a Quad Vena inside, and the CDT CD player is basically an Audiolab.
Interesting. From the information I have gleaned the D-A is different between the two. Otherwise I'm perfectly prepared to accept that they are not dissimilar inside.

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Old 18th Sep 2020, 2:57 pm   #28
mhennessy
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

The original Vena used a Cirus Logic CS4398 DAC, but the Vena II has the same CSS ES9018K2M that the Leak uses.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 4:10 pm   #29
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

The Vena and Stereo 130 are pitched at comparable price points too, so all the evidence thus far suggests that they are one in the same circuit wise. This is fair enough of course since they are both IAG products. However, I still wouldn't pay that sort of money for what are pretty standard amplifiers in modern terms although I accept that many people will not view the matter in the same way.

Alan
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 4:37 pm   #30
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

In a conglomerate group operating multiple brands iy makes little sense having different innards. It just becomes a matter of badges and styling details. Oh, and prices!

Austin, Morris, Wolseley, MG, Riley, and for the slightly snobby, Vanden Plas, and still a 1300. Same thing as Pye-Dynatron but maybe 20dB sillier with so many more brands.

We've seen it before in various fields.

David
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 4:38 pm   #31
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

http://www.ekcoaudio.com/ev55se

Heres the Ekco website with all the high end Vacuum tube amps , and it is owned by IAG.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 5:07 pm   #32
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

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Looking at the spec, it's probably based on a pair of LM3886 or similar.

Nothing wrong with that - they are good ICs. You'd have to have a really good reason to "go discrete" with a power amplifier at that sort of output power these days - the usual reason is marketing.
I'd agree with the use of the LM3886. This guy in Canada sells boards for these and does his measurements with an Audio Precision APx525 test set.

https://neurochrome.com/products/lm3886-done-right

Have a look at the specifications and performance graphs.

Craig
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 6:28 pm   #33
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

Brands come, brands go. I've got no issues whatsoever with businesses who acquire legacy-brands and keep them going profitably (a business that doesn't deliver to its shareholders is not a business).

"Past Glory" is all very well, but I suspect these new Leaks - if stuck on an analyser, are spectacularly more-linear and less distortion-inducing than the older Leak stuff, and undoubtedly deliver loads more undistorted-Watts-of-output-power-per-(inflation-adjusted)-Pound than the Leaks of the 50s and 60s that people go all moist over.

Branding? Design? Style? It's all a matter of taste. B&O did the 'cool-looking-but-expensive-and-not-that-good' HiFi in the 60s and 70s, Apple did/still do the same with computers/phones. I remember a friend's dad in the 70s demonstrating with unrestrained enthusiasm his new B&O Hifi - my comment "doesn't it go any louder?" really deflated him.

Horses for courses: I don't have golden ears (indeed, my hearing below about 250Hz is all-but nonexistent) so no point trying to sell me audiophile stuff. But for those with loose wallet-strings and golden-ears, I see no problems at all in a business profitably supplying legacy-branded golden-ears stuff at an ego-massaging "because you're worth it!" price.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 6:51 pm   #34
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

Agreed entirely.

Just for laughs I looked up the price of the Radford DSM stereo control unit and STA12 stereo power amplifier. All valved of course.

They used the trick that persisted at that time of quoting the price in guineas to make it seem cheaper than it actually was.

Anyway in 1960 the DSM was 33gns and the STA12 was 37gns - so a round total of 70gns. Or £73.50. Correcting for rpi from 1960 gets you to £1,740.

Since average earnings in 1960 was slightly over £14 a week, even if you were not paying tax 70gns corresponds to over five weeks salary.

Today average salary is £585 a week, so five weeks salary (again not taxed) would correspond to slightly less than £3k.

What that comparison says is that high quality audio, taking the new Leak amplifier as the benchmark, is 23% the effective price/salary ratio as compared to 1960. And the Leak is massively higher performance of course.

Craig
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 7:55 pm   #35
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

AFAIK, IAG are primarily a luxury yacht-building company, whose director took a shine to english vintage hifi and 'liked it so much I bought the company' sort of thing. Alot of the audio products' circuit diagrams are inscribed with 'Sanecore Musical Instrument Company'.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 8:18 am   #36
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

I would much rather see these iconic brands afloat, resplendent in vintage livery providing enjoyment to people than them being confined solely to history books. As a lover of all things 'vintage audio' I think it's great, much better than minimalist black boxes from here today gone tomorrow companies who think they're going to make a lot of money selling hi-fi amps.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 10:10 am   #37
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

At least here the brand is still on high-end hi-fi products whose quality fits their legacy. We should be grateful that the brand is being resurrected in that way.

Unlike some brands like Bush and Goodmans that are relegated bottom-end products sold by Argos etc, which are no comparison to the quality of their original era.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 11:15 am   #38
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

All I’m hoping is that the next Leak product is a new pair of 3090 loudspeakers!
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 7:54 am   #39
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I’m sure I read somewhere, Bush, Goodmans, and Hitachi are brand names bought by Argos?
Akai is another brand popping up on budget equipment.
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 8:49 am   #40
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Default Re: Leak HiFi returns(!)

Names from a golden past are still worth a bit of money to traders who think they will enhance sales of tat. But it's time-limited, eventually all the people with happy memories of things from Bush and Goodmans will have gone. Those traders aren't in anything for the long term, though. Do they get a boost, even if for a short time that is a good return on the investment of buying the name? That's all they care about.

It's different in the case of Quad and Leak. I think IAG have acted as if they're in it for the long term. I wonder about them seeing the need to operate two brands in the same market place.

Much of the world has overshot minimalist.... audio hardware with no controls at all on it, just an app for your smartphone. The Leak's olde worlde knobs are refreshingly direct and immediate.

David
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