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Vintage Amateur and Military Radio Amateur/military receivers and transmitters, morse, and any other related vintage comms equipment.

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Old 21st Feb 2012, 10:32 pm   #21
GMB
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

I would say that you need at least the intermediate license to be able to use vintage rigs. There is some ambiguity about this in the regulations (I have had arguments about this) but my interpretation of them is that you can only use commercial rigs that meet modern type-approval (as well as the power limit).

Having invigilated at an intermediate exam I have to say that if you can't pass that then you really shouldn't be thinking of going near a vintage transmitter.

I would agree that FT101's are a great compromise. They are modern enough in capability to do everything you might want, but old enough to have fixable technology that is actually comprehensible and robust valve PAs that will do you serious harm if you stick your fingers in them. Note that the FT101Z is not at all the same as the other FT101's (it's really an FT901 I think) and in my opinion it's a bit harder to work on.

I would warn anyone who doesn't have serious RF test equipment to steer clear of the early first FT01's though. They have to be perfectly set up to avoid generating spurious mixer products all over the spectrum.

To avoid frightening the neighbours you can use an NVIS antenna which can be just a few feet off the ground. You won't get DX but it's good for the UK and lots of Europe.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 10:52 pm   #22
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

What are FT-902 ' s like, they seem to be a direct descendant of the FT-101 with similar architecture? I would definitely take the intermediate licence, once I have passed the foundation level. I probably haven't enough technical interest to go the whole hog, nor the time to study for it, sadly I have a business to run and bills to pay, which limits my free time I would also like to find out more about amateur AM communication on the low frequencies. I had wrongly guessed people would need to run huge power on those bands to get anywhere far. I can already see how amateur gear is like many things, one of "something" is far from sufficient
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:06 pm   #23
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex seismic View Post
I suspect quite a few cannot measure their power output; a lot of people just have an SWR meter. There are plenty of adequate power meters out there as well as "proper" classic meters such as the Bird. A good bit of kit as reflected by the prices they fetch.
I personally have a Bird and in my M3 days (10w) used it to keep tabs on my 101ZD. I never had a problem keeping it down to 10w, but the power output control on the set is not calibrated so you do need external means of measuring it.
You could use a suitably high power attenuator to run the set at a high level but only put out you legal limit to the aerial.
It is not policed.
There are quite a few adjustments to be made to a 101 every time you change frequency which can make it tedious to "hunt and peck" across a band which you may want to do if you are looking for someone to talk to. I suggest you find someone to demonstrate such a set to see if it appeals.

Gordon

Thanks Gordon, so the regulations only consider the power fed to the antenna
itself? To be ridiculous you could run a commercially available amateur band set of any power output at all so long as it was attenuated down to just feed 10 watts into the aerial, however inefficient that usage of the output stages may be? A bit like an artificially throttled learner level motorcycle engine? I see little point in buying something permanently pegged at 10 watts if you later want more power and have to sell the thing to get something else. The K3 sounds sensible with a changeable power amp stage, but sounds very expensive compared to used more mainstream sets. Coming from a motor race engine development background I know that the yanks love to flatter engine power levels to a ludicrous degree, they claim their dynamometers are "different" to ours, which is basically saying they read a different set of supposedly irrefutable physics theories to ourselves! Are they similarly disposed to rating their radio gear specifications, or am I just paranoid about their claims after experiencing their real world engine power figures?

I will try and find out more about the continual tweaking needed on the FT-101, I wonder if YouTube shows anything on this?
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:11 pm   #24
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Chris, with all due respect, you must keep within the license conditions. Which for foundation are commercial equipment meeting type approval, at 10w output. Its not that the bands are actively policed, but if you were to cause any unintentional interference, you would be in trouble if outside the conditions. Besides, keeping within the rules and maintaining a good, clean station from the beginnning is good practice. Also, at the risk of annoying our more learned vintage enthusiasts, at this stage you want to be able to explore the different aspects of the hobby, which would be hard to do with vintage gear. You will probably also wish to make use of 2m FM for local contacts and nattering to local club members. I would suggest starting with a modern multimode, multiband radio, such as an FT-857D or an IC-706mkIIG. I have an 857 for portable and mobile. The most important thing though is antennas. Your questions on another thread show that you are persuing this. I would save the vintage gear interest until you attain your full license and can make best use of it, and have a bit of experience on-air.

On the subject of test gear. I would strongly advise that you invest in a good quality 150w rated dummy load. This will let you test any transmitter you are likely to use. There are lots of very good surplus units from Aerial Facilities available (AFL), or Bird. A good power/SWR meter is also wise. These will give you a good basis for the future.

When do you take the exam?

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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:37 pm   #25
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

There seems some delay over paperwork from the RSGB, I was told by a local instructor that the only two people who handle processing of paperwork are BOTH on holiday at the same time or something equally British. So with the best will in the world he can't do much for at least two weeks. Not sure of the details, that was the gist of the conversation. I need to look into the equipment side of thing in more depth once I have got he exam side of things sorted. Have no fears, I am a generally law abiding chap with respect for others and a desire to abide by any regulations, I was just wondering how output of transmitters was throttled, if needed.Thanks for the test gear info, what is considered a decent power / SWR meter to look for? I am, as you have seen, pursuing info on aerial possibilities, as that will obviously have a bearing on what frequencies I may be interested in. Much as I would like to take advantage of the space here, and the seclusion, I definitely don't want the place looking like a military installation. `Er indoors would probably share that sentiment in spades, too.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:38 pm   #26
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Chris, my suggestion would be to equip your station with one or two decent 'boat-anchor' vintage receivers, which will satisfy your desire for repairable vintage-looking kit, and then spend some time listening around the bands whilst you progress through the licence classes. I too like Eddystone sets (there's also a wealth of support available) and the Racal RA17 is a superb performer despite its complexity. The ex-military R1155 may also be an option if you can get one in restored condition - lots of those are available.

Unless you're proposing to master CW and stick to QRP, a home brew or vintage transmitter is probably out of the question. Something like the Yaesu FT817, whilst definitely not vintage, is an ideal transceiver for the new licensee with limited (a compliant 5 watts) output power but all mode, all band coverage and by all reports they give a very good account of themselves, especially into a decent antenna. It sounds like you could build some very effective antennas using the space available to you, and don't forget that a good antenna is also the best low-noise preamp available.

In summary, get one or two nice vintage receivers and use a QRP multimode transceiver for the tricky bit.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:55 pm   #27
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Sounds like the RSGB in full swing there

MY main SWR/power meter is a diamond SX-200, whilst not the greatest, its not the worst either. Avoid the cheep cb types. A bird 43 meter is excellent, but you need to get the right inserts for the frequencies your using.

My HF antenna here is a simple wire doublet, and i do well with it. Build antennas rather than buying them (except perhaps for a dual band colinear for 2m and 70cm FM, which is esier to buy than build!) as this will be cheaper and you'll learn a lot more.

As Phil has mentioned the FT-817 is a great little radio, does all bands and all modes (ok, not quite all bands, but all the important ones!), and its light weight means you can use it anywhere. You might find SOTA floats your boat (as it does mine) and the 817 is immensly portable. Incidentally, the 817, 857 and 897 (i think it is) all share the same internal electronics but different cases and in the case of the latter two a bigger PA. Which means if you learn to use one, moving to the bigger one is no effort.

Phils suggestion to stick to modern kit for tx and indulge in vintage receivers is a good idea, you can play all you like then without breeching any license conditions, and a seperate station receiver is always usefull for checking your other equipment against. I have a FRG-100 receiver for that very purpose

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Wilson View Post
There seems some delay over paperwork from the RSGB, I was told by a local instructor that the only two people who handle processing of paperwork are BOTH on holiday at the same time or something equally British. So with the best will in the world he can't do much for at least two weeks. Not sure of the details, that was the gist of the conversation. I need to look into the equipment side of thing in more depth once I have got he exam side of things sorted. Have no fears, I am a generally law abiding chap with respect for others and a desire to abide by any regulations, I was just wondering how output of transmitters was throttled, if needed.Thanks for the test gear info, what is considered a decent power / SWR meter to look for? I am, as you have seen, pursuing info on aerial possibilities, as that will obviously have a bearing on what frequencies I may be interested in. Much as I would like to take advantage of the space here, and the seclusion, I definitely don't want the place looking like a military installation. `Er indoors would probably share that sentiment in spades, too.
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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 12:44 pm   #28
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Its possibly a lot easier to get a low power rig in the first instance that wont exceed 10W than try and turn a higher power job down.

My rig is 100W pep out so no worries on my limit of 400W even allowing for aerial gain.Yes i do have a linear but as yet unused till i can be sure i can be within limits.30 years old and its a big boy!

Do have power /swr meter built in to a good quality aerial tuning/matching unit though.

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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 12:46 pm   #29
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

PS Also have FT817 and its a superb rig .

PPS There is a youtube video of a guy in Glasgow working Newzealand on one (5Watts)
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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 7:46 pm   #30
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Hi All,

I can recommend the Trio TS120V, a ten watt rig that operates on all the old bands. Mine is still working well from when I bought it new in the 1980's. The low power is also good driving transverters if you want to go on 2m, 70cms. SSB only though. I'm in a similar black hole for VHF so HF is the only real way of communicating from here.

You can always add a linear if you upgrade the license one day.

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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 9:54 pm   #31
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Its quite ironic the way that things have changed. When I, and lots like me, started we built our own valved rigs for Topband AM and CW. Then, those who wanted to got bigger, usually commercial, rigs like the FT101, etc and probably a linear amp as well.

People starting off in the hobby now, have to do it the other way round, in a sense, by having to buy a commercial rig or a kit, albeit low power. Perhaps its the "price" to be paid for not having to do a morse test before being let loose on the HF bands. I guess there's a safety element in there as well.

I'm not really sure which approach is best, but i know i had a lot of fun.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic.

73's

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Old 24th Feb 2012, 12:17 pm   #32
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Hi Aub,

You're quite right, of course. It's a rather sad indictment of today's world. Everthing has to be plug and play out of the box. You don't even get to fit your own mains plug these days! When you hear of "amateurs" buying commercial wire dipoles it gives some idea of how "dumbed down" the hobby has become. One of the aims of amateur radio used to be "self training" in radio communication techniques which, in my view, included the ability to construct equipment and use it responsibly on the air. I'm afraid that a large proportion of todays' users have very little idea of how their equipment works (partly, of course, due to the unecessary complexity of commercial gear). Listening on some of the bands these days, you could be mistaken for thinking you were on citizen's band (which, in a sense, you are). So I guess our idea of what constitutes "proper" equipment is rather different from some on this thread. I suppose it's an age thing .

I'll get off my soap box now....
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 2:10 pm   #33
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Thumbs up Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Keith: agreed . . . totally; well said!

Al.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 4:48 pm   #34
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Quote:
When you hear of "amateurs" buying commercial wire dipoles
Ok, what is so bad about that?

By the time youve shelled out for feeder, hard drawn wire and insulators you have exceeded the cost of a commercial antenna.

Time is another constraint - speed of installation really helps, as well as convenience!

Add this to the fact that so few want to build their own clobber, and in most cases are completely unable to, you get the scenario we have now - an ageing hobby with limited uptake, and the majority of newcomers not interested in progressing beyond the minimum - who really cares about high power, and the ability to build stuff - you can work the world with a foundation callsign.....

That being said, I am proud of my full license, and am also proud that I can design and build equipment if I need to.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 5:11 pm   #35
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Arrow Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Williams View Post
Quote:
When you hear of "amateurs" buying commercial wire dipoles
OK, what is so bad about that?
There is nothing intrinsically 'bad' about that Sean. It's simply a matter that Amateur Radio can provide a lot of fulfilment to a licensed Amateur Radio enthusiast than merely being only an 'operator'. Your closing remark actually recognises that fact.

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Old 24th Feb 2012, 5:45 pm   #36
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

So, speaking of build your own antennae, where's the best place to buy reasonably priced hard drawn wire from in quantity? I have a bulk bucket of electric fence egg insulators, is there any reason not to use those for an aerial installation? What about feed throughs? Need to bring the downlead into the bungalow either under a tile / ridge tile or through the cavity wall.

How long a feed cable can you use from an aerial into the house, and can you bury it?

Is this a decent SWR / Wattmeter for HF? I have been offered something identical.

Thanks.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 7:26 pm   #37
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

The meter is Marconi, so good quality. It does though look like just a power meter, not an SWR meter: I can only see one connector. With anything like this and SWR meters, watch the frequency range it covers. You will find externally identical twin meter SWR meters out there, some are rated up to 150 MHz, some struggle to get beyond 30. Incidentally, for SWR, twin meters, or cross needle meters are far more convenient than a single, switched meter.
As to wire, experiment! Start with whatever you can find, and if you build something you are very happy with then think about a permanent installation with your hard drawn copper. If you have ceramic insulators well and good, if not, bits of plastic rope do not conduct very well.
You can bury co-ax but not twin feeder.
73,
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 10:04 am   #38
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

There seems to be some inference about today's entrants to Ham Radio as being purely operators. Well what is wrong with that . Quite often the prolifice builders of ham gear operate very little again what is wrong with that.

Times move on , the hobby is better than it has ever been in my humble opinion, rtty, bpsk, morse , ssb, AM from LF to microwaves. Fabulous kits to purchase and build with the elecraft , more basic homebrew articles abound everywhere in fact the hobby is so diverse and now accessible , more so than it has ever been.

They dropped the morse for the full license yet it appears to me to have a bigger following than ever including new licensees.

Incidentally Chris I agree with Sean re looking for a new rig.

Mike
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 11:23 am   #39
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

This thread looks to be edging towards a stereotypical code/no code bunfight! Lets not let it get that far

I think the key thing here is what the Foundation license conditions actually say. I will go through them later, but my interpretation is commercial/type aproved transmitters only, with a maximum output of 10w. No homebrew, no modification (there is an exception to that - a foundation holder may use commercial equipment converted for amateur use by a suitably qualified person, ie full licensee or qualified engineer. I had an argument with ofcom to establish that)

Antennas can and should be homebrew, where apropriate. I myself wouldnt bother making my own dual band colinear, as its beyond my workshop facilities, but HF wires i build. That way you learn much more.

There is an obvious compromise here. Chris quite obviously is wedded to the idea of operating some vinatge kit. So the best thing would be a modern commercial transceiver, alongside a vintage receiver. The receiver qualifies his desire for a bit of vintage tinkering without running foul of his license. The commercial rig also means he has all the ability to enjoy his sport and to try out new techniques and aspects of the hobby. Who knows, he might get really into VHF moonbounce using JT-65, or, he may well end up a glow in the dark rig and morse only fiend! The above start-up means he has all the options available.

Chris - dont at this stage restrict your options. Ham radio is not a hobby, it is hundreds of hobbies united by a common field. I work HF DX and special event stations, i also play with WSPR, i do SOTA, and i like a bit of ARDF. Im a homebrewer. These are very diverse interests!

I would advise get a modern rig (FT-817?) and a couple of antennas, PSU etc. Get your license, get on air. Then get a vintage receiver. Then explore the hobby.
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 11:27 am   #40
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Default Re: "Proper" receiver and transmitter for new amateur radio enthusiast?

The meter you showed was a dummy load and power meter, great for checking your output but no use for checking the match to your antenna. This is more the thing ebay no. 150752171028, or an ATU with a cross needle meter. Unless you decide to get resonant antennas for HF you will need an ATU or some such device.

Westlake sell lots of wire and feeders. Some coax can be buried, but ladderline/open wire feeder must be kept clear of obstructions and conductors by several inches. The leccy fence insulators will be fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Wilson View Post
So, speaking of build your own antennae, where's the best place to buy reasonably priced hard drawn wire from in quantity? I have a bulk bucket of electric fence egg insulators, is there any reason not to use those for an aerial installation? What about feed throughs? Need to bring the downlead into the bungalow either under a tile / ridge tile or through the cavity wall.

How long a feed cable can you use from an aerial into the house, and can you bury it?

Is this a decent SWR / Wattmeter for HF? I have been offered something identical.

Thanks.
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