UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > Components and Circuits

Notices

Components and Circuits For discussions about component types, alternatives and availability, circuit configurations and modifications etc. Discussions here should be of a general nature and not about specific sets.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 16th Mar 2017, 6:36 pm   #1
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,993
Default Huge NPN transistor

A friend of ours has this souvenir from his days as an electronics engineer and i thought I'd like to share it here as I have never seen such a large device before. No doubt there's a few members who can tell us a fair bit about these big transistors.

Andy
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20170316_143331[1].jpg
Views:	400
Size:	98.0 KB
ID:	139368   Click image for larger version

Name:	20170316_143313[1].jpg
Views:	336
Size:	51.1 KB
ID:	139369  
bikerhifinut is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2017, 6:41 pm   #2
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

That's an IGBT, a mosfet NPN darlington, bloomin' huge thing. You could do the same now with a few MOSFETS in parallel. I wonder how big the chip inside is?
 
Old 16th Mar 2017, 6:47 pm   #3
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,993
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

It does make the mind boggle, 600A at 400V! I think len said it was used as part of an emergency PSU in a big phone exchange, if I understood him right.

I had this flight of fancy of some mad person getting a couple and using them as a high power single ended output stage. What a USP that might have been. switch the thing on and all the lights in town go dim................... Like i said completely mad and I apologise for that.

A
bikerhifinut is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2017, 8:16 pm   #4
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

A mere four of these http://uk.farnell.com/ixys-semicondu...64p/dp/2674784 amazing how technology has advanced.
 
Old 16th Mar 2017, 8:27 pm   #5
Neutrino
Pentode
 
Neutrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Maldon, Essex, UK.
Posts: 182
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

GE’s variable frequency drive can deliver up to 15 MW with just 18 IGBTs.

http://www.gepowerconversion.com/sit...rochure_EN.pdf
Neutrino is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2017, 9:04 pm   #6
McMurdo
Dekatron
 
McMurdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 5,263
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

still a current product, no pun intended. I've just replaced one in an emergency shutdown circuit of a laser cutter. Switching of rated current via a simple control voltage and a few micro amps.

Big IGBTs and their darlington equivalent aren't readily supplanted by mosfets. They arent robust enough for the type of application these IGBTs are used for, eg motor control, charging, inverters, traction and power conversion. For equipment typically on 415V, you ideally need 1600V rated devices, not easily (or cheaply) found at these currents with mosfets.

These contain beryllium oxide BTW, not to be cut open or drilled.
__________________
Kevin

Last edited by McMurdo; 16th Mar 2017 at 9:17 pm.
McMurdo is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:03 pm   #7
factory
Octode
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 1,706
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

Those in the picture are probably what was on the floor next to an industrial compressor being repaired at work, presumably for controlling the drive motor.

I also used to change loads of the ordinary darlington version of these on DC to DC converter units, I think they were 1200v rated but at a lower current. They did manage to open themselves sometimes, usually just the sides blew out, but occasionally they went bang with enough force to bend all the copper bars above. The sticky insulating snot inside was always difficult to remove from the surrounding parts.

David
factory is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:59 pm   #8
McMurdo
Dekatron
 
McMurdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 5,263
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

Modern compressors invariably use IGBTs for either a variable frequency inverter or more these days to generate the waveforms for the new switched reluctance motors. Those big IGBTs are then usually bolted straight into the case of the compressor.

Last year I went to diagnose a fault on a 400kW compressor (blown IGBTs) and after I went someone tried to switch it on and run it. The remaining good IGBTs tried to leap out of the side of the compressor, frightening the guy standing next to them somewhat.

An former aquaintance of mine used to work at the local (demolished) GEC inverter factory where they told people IGBT stood for 'It Goes Bang Today'. Bit of stoke humour.
__________________
Kevin
McMurdo is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2017, 12:12 am   #9
MrBungle
Dekatron
 
MrBungle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

I wouldn't want to be there if that blew. I blew up an IRF510 a year trying to build a switching inverter and that went with quite a bang!
MrBungle is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2017, 12:35 am   #10
Craig Sawyers
Dekatron
 
Craig Sawyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,941
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell View Post
A mere four of these http://uk.farnell.com/ixys-semicondu...64p/dp/2674784 amazing how technology has advanced.
And that is without resorting to SiC devices which can run with a junction temperature of 200C.
For example a SiC MOSFET with 1200V, 65A, 59m-ohm Rds(on) http://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/...twa50n120.html

And even more outrageous devices are on their way, like 650V, 100A and 22m-ohm again all at 200C junction.
Craig Sawyers is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2017, 6:38 am   #11
Diabolical Artificer
Dekatron
 
Diabolical Artificer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sleaford, Lincs. UK.
Posts: 7,637
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

Nice devices Andy and worth a few bob too.

I don't understand how those little leads on Mosfet's are supposed to conduct 100A, even if it's transient or pulsed. the contact wires on the die are even thinner, so how.

Andy's IGBT looks much tougher.

Andy.
__________________
Curiosity hasn't killed this cat...so far.
Diabolical Artificer is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2017, 5:02 pm   #12
usradcoll1
Heptode
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Cedar Grove, Wisconsin, USA.
Posts: 823
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerhifinut View Post
A friend of ours has this souvenir from his days as an electronics engineer and i thought I'd like to share it here as I have never seen such a large device before. No doubt there's a few members who can tell us a fair bit about these big transistors.
I had exposure to one of those about 20 years ago. It was used in a Linde pulse-arc welder. Replacement cost was $200 USD back them.
I drive a Hybrid car as a daily driver, a Prius. Invertor drive, 200 volts DC in, 500 volts, 3 phase AC out @ 62KW. Water cooled.
Wondering what kind of devices, it uses.
I have to look up the theory of operation again.
usradcoll1 is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2017, 5:07 pm   #13
McMurdo
Dekatron
 
McMurdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 5,263
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

The 300A devices on the laser cutters are mounted on a water cooled heatsink. It isn't all about current, it's about dissipation. A transistor that switches at 18kHz will dissipate heat each time it transitions from off to on and vice versa. Getting rid of that heat before the SOA is exceeded takes some doing.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	igbt.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	85.8 KB
ID:	139384  
__________________
Kevin
McMurdo is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2017, 10:10 pm   #14
ChristianFletcher
Heptode
 
ChristianFletcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 900
Question Re: Huge NPN transistor

Hi Kevin

What is the foil warning label on your picture. Anti static ?
__________________
Every Silver Lining Has Its Cloud https://youtube.com/channel/UCvBpiuUUnErJlNBm6DWb3Ww
ChristianFletcher is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2017, 11:15 pm   #15
McMurdo
Dekatron
 
McMurdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 5,263
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

yes a foil shorting link is in place until just before installation. There is a seperate light duty emitter terminal alongside the gate for the twisted pair signal cable, these two are joined.
Smaller IGBT modules have faston gate/emitter terminals and usually come with conductive foam pushed over them.
__________________
Kevin
McMurdo is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2017, 2:09 am   #16
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,993
Default Re: Huge NPN transistor

this stuff is interesting!
i was just kind of gobsmacked to see a vintage device so big, len's been retired 20 years so it wasn't a modern bit of kit.
bikerhifinut is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 9:17 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.