Quartz clock movement query - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

nicam49 · 24th Dec 2022, 9:01 pm

Hi All, I have a similar problem to this one:
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=103354
my Kienzle movement has the same high frequency crystal; 4.194304MHz, and a similar-sounding chip : 1110A with the maker's mark a sort of scripted 'e'
I've had this movement in an old converted wall clock since the 1970s, and it uses 2 x 'C' batteries.
It no longer goes. I'd like some tips, please on how to test/check what might be the matter with it. I do have an old analogue scope,... should I expect to see a waveform on the crystal or would the scope probe suppress it? Thanks for your thoughts!

joebog1 · 24th Dec 2022, 9:08 pm

Can you take a picture of the track side of the PCB ?

Joe

nicam49 · 25th Dec 2022, 2:05 am

Hi Joe, yes will do tomorrow, in the meantime have been reading another thread with a similar movement:
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=158324

Sadly this one ended up in the bin (spoiler alert)!

tanveerriaz · 25th Dec 2022, 8:21 am

tune a sw radio 4.194304MHz for chk osc. easy chk osc frequency.

nicam49 · 25th Dec 2022, 12:09 pm

Here's a pic of the circuit board - the white wire is there to bridge the on/off switch.
Thanks for the sw radio tip!

joebog1 · 25th Dec 2022, 10:01 pm

I would think there is nothing much to go wrong with that board. Of course, saying that I am assuming the chip still works and that coil isnt open circuit. There is an "orange blob " that I am assuming is a capacitor. I would be starting there.

A s that capacitor looks to be electrolytic, its a prime suspect for drying out. I dont know what value it is so you will have to dissemble the unit to see, and change it. I cannot see that it would cost more than about a quid, even if its something special.

If you take the PCB off the mechanism we can see what else might be hiding in there.

Joe

nicam49 · 26th Dec 2022, 2:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanveerriaz

tune a sw radio 4.194304MHz for chk osc. easy chk osc frequency.

A good idea.... Except that my sw radio's bands start at 5.95mhz, and curiously all its othe bands avoid any harmonics of 4.194304..... :-(

nicam49 · 26th Dec 2022, 9:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebog1

I would think there is nothing much to go wrong with that board. Of course, saying that I am assuming the chip still works and that coil isnt open circuit. There is an "orange blob " that I am assuming is a capacitor. I would be starting there.

A s that capacitor looks to be electrolytic, its a prime suspect for drying out. I dont know what value it is so you will have to dissemble the unit to see, and change it. I cannot see that it would cost more than about a quid, even if its something special.

If you take the PCB off the mechanism we can see what else might be hiding in there.

Joe

Thanks Joe! I almost missed your reply for some reason, will take more pics before pulling it apart 👍

Mooly · 28th Dec 2022, 3:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicam49

I'd like some tips, please on how to test/check what might be the matter with it. I do have an old analogue scope,... should I expect to see a waveform on the crystal or would the scope probe suppress it? Thanks for your thoughts!

I would have thought a scope would show it running. Ideally you want a 10:1 divider probe which has a lower capacitance loading than a 1:1 probe.

If you haven't got one then just measure using a series cap (say 10pF) to the crystal. Make sure the cap is at the measuring end of the lead.

One end of the crstal will be the oscillator 'output' and more able to stand loading, the other end is the input to the oscillator and more likely to be affected by a probe.

lesmw0sec · 28th Dec 2022, 3:55 pm

I would not be convinced about a scope reading, even with a probe. Those circuits are very fussy about loading - same with some of the PIC oscillators. A nearby radio is a good suggestion.

nicam49 · 28th Dec 2022, 8:32 pm

Thanks for everyone's advice. I'll dig out my elderly scope this evening and hope it fires up (in a good way) the circuit also contains 2 small value caps, no values, shown. Re the radio suggestion : the frequency 4.194304mhz is out of the range of any of the bands of my sw radio as are its harmonics.

joebog1 · 28th Dec 2022, 9:45 pm

I can see one ceramic cap ( little grey square with black top )but it would be unlikely that it would fail.
Its an NPO cap ( indicated by black top ).
I think everybody else here is assuming that nicam has a workshop equiped with all the do-dads.
I am assuming the opposite.

Joe

David G4EBT · 28th Dec 2022, 11:24 pm

I wouldn’t in any way want to dissuade or discourage you from trying to restore the clock movement to working order. After all, the bedrock of the forum is restoration, conservation and experimentation and there’s nothing like a ‘’success story’ to gladden the heart.

However, if the repair doesn’t go to plan, given that the movement itself is not original to the clock, you might wish to consider a replacement. I’ve done that a couple of times using MSF radio controlled movements, which aren’t expensive. You can get them with a smooth sweep silent movement, or a ‘tick’ movement which simulate the ticking second hand of a mechanical clock.

Lots to choose from including kienzle. EG:

https://www.dansclockshop.com/search...dio+controlled

Hope that of interest.

Good luck with the repair.

nicam49 · 29th Dec 2022, 12:24 am

Well, I think my vaulting ambition got the better of me, and I managed to destroy the 2 47pf NPO caps but not before removing and measuring them - one was 47pf, and the other measured 41pf. The orange cap is a bipolar 20uf one and measured 24.94 uf, with an esr of 0.56 Ohms. The xtal has date of 1-76 marked on it. Looks like I'll be a while trying to source 2 47ph NPO caps without paying a ton in postage tho' I guess any will do temp. If I want to substitute the bipolar cap, I understand I can wire 2 electrolytics together, at least for now. Thanks for your help btw esp identifying the NPO caps - which I hadn't a clue about!

joebog1 · 29th Dec 2022, 4:42 am

ALL of those capacitors will cost less than half a pint!!.
The 47Pf ceramic plates will need be identical to the origionals, because NPO is the temeperature co efficient of the
capacitor.
I dont mean they need be matched or identical in exact value, but they should be ceramic plate NPO's.
What that means is that is does not change capacity with temperature, well, at least not very much.

The bipolar electrolytic can be purchased in a very large variety of qualities. From real rubbish, to something very nicely made and will last years. It will still be very cheap. Yes, you can use two back to back ordinary electrolytics, but will look tacky on the PCB.

Joe

Station X · 29th Dec 2022, 12:49 pm

Five off topic posts moved to a new thread here:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=197044

24th Dec 2022, 9:01 pm	#1
nicam49 Hexode Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK. Posts: 350	Quartz clock movement query Hi All, I have a similar problem to this one: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=103354 my Kienzle movement has the same high frequency crystal; 4.194304MHz, and a similar-sounding chip : 1110A with the maker's mark a sort of scripted 'e' I've had this movement in an old converted wall clock since the 1970s, and it uses 2 x 'C' batteries. It no longer goes. I'd like some tips, please on how to test/check what might be the matter with it. I do have an old analogue scope,... should I expect to see a waveform on the crystal or would the scope probe suppress it? Thanks for your thoughts! Attached Thumbnails

24th Dec 2022, 9:08 pm	#2
joebog1 Banned Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia Posts: 2,704	Re: Quartz clock movement qyery Can you take a picture of the track side of the PCB ? Joe

25th Dec 2022, 2:05 am	#3
nicam49 Hexode Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK. Posts: 350	Re: Quartz clock movement query Hi Joe, yes will do tomorrow, in the meantime have been reading another thread with a similar movement: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=158324 Sadly this one ended up in the bin (spoiler alert)!

25th Dec 2022, 8:21 am	#4
tanveerriaz Triode Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Rawalpindi, Pakistan. Posts: 15	Re: Quartz clock movement query tune a sw radio 4.194304MHz for chk osc. easy chk osc frequency.

25th Dec 2022, 12:09 pm	#5
nicam49 Hexode Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK. Posts: 350	Re: Quartz clock movement query Here's a pic of the circuit board - the white wire is there to bridge the on/off switch. Thanks for the sw radio tip! Attached Thumbnails

25th Dec 2022, 10:01 pm	#6
joebog1 Banned Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia Posts: 2,704	Re: Quartz clock movement query I would think there is nothing much to go wrong with that board. Of course, saying that I am assuming the chip still works and that coil isnt open circuit. There is an "orange blob " that I am assuming is a capacitor. I would be starting there. A s that capacitor looks to be electrolytic, its a prime suspect for drying out. I dont know what value it is so you will have to dissemble the unit to see, and change it. I cannot see that it would cost more than about a quid, even if its something special. If you take the PCB off the mechanism we can see what else might be hiding in there. Joe

28th Dec 2022, 3:55 pm	#10
lesmw0sec Octode Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Carmel, Llannerchymedd, Anglesey, UK. Posts: 1,506	Re: Quartz clock movement query I would not be convinced about a scope reading, even with a probe. Those circuits are very fussy about loading - same with some of the PIC oscillators. A nearby radio is a good suggestion.

28th Dec 2022, 8:32 pm	#11
nicam49 Hexode Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK. Posts: 350	Re: Quartz clock movement query Thanks for everyone's advice. I'll dig out my elderly scope this evening and hope it fires up (in a good way) the circuit also contains 2 small value caps, no values, shown. Re the radio suggestion : the frequency 4.194304mhz is out of the range of any of the bands of my sw radio as are its harmonics.

28th Dec 2022, 9:45 pm	#12
joebog1 Banned Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia Posts: 2,704	Re: Quartz clock movement query I can see one ceramic cap ( little grey square with black top )but it would be unlikely that it would fail. Its an NPO cap ( indicated by black top ). I think everybody else here is assuming that nicam has a workshop equiped with all the do-dads. I am assuming the opposite. Joe

28th Dec 2022, 11:24 pm	#13
David G4EBT Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 5,761	Re: Quartz clock movement query I wouldn’t in any way want to dissuade or discourage you from trying to restore the clock movement to working order. After all, the bedrock of the forum is restoration, conservation and experimentation and there’s nothing like a ‘’success story’ to gladden the heart. However, if the repair doesn’t go to plan, given that the movement itself is not original to the clock, you might wish to consider a replacement. I’ve done that a couple of times using MSF radio controlled movements, which aren’t expensive. You can get them with a smooth sweep silent movement, or a ‘tick’ movement which simulate the ticking second hand of a mechanical clock. Lots to choose from including kienzle. EG: https://www.dansclockshop.com/search...dio+controlled Hope that of interest. Good luck with the repair. __________________ David. BVWS Member. G-QRP Club member 1339.

29th Dec 2022, 12:24 am	#14
nicam49 Hexode Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK. Posts: 350	Re: Quartz clock movement query Well, I think my vaulting ambition got the better of me, and I managed to destroy the 2 47pf NPO caps but not before removing and measuring them - one was 47pf, and the other measured 41pf. The orange cap is a bipolar 20uf one and measured 24.94 uf, with an esr of 0.56 Ohms. The xtal has date of 1-76 marked on it. Looks like I'll be a while trying to source 2 47ph NPO caps without paying a ton in postage tho' I guess any will do temp. If I want to substitute the bipolar cap, I understand I can wire 2 electrolytics together, at least for now. Thanks for your help btw esp identifying the NPO caps - which I hadn't a clue about!

29th Dec 2022, 4:42 am	#15
joebog1 Banned Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia Posts: 2,704	Re: Quartz clock movement query ALL of those capacitors will cost less than half a pint!!. The 47Pf ceramic plates will need be identical to the origionals, because NPO is the temeperature co efficient of the capacitor. I dont mean they need be matched or identical in exact value, but they should be ceramic plate NPO's. What that means is that is does not change capacity with temperature, well, at least not very much. The bipolar electrolytic can be purchased in a very large variety of qualities. From real rubbish, to something very nicely made and will last years. It will still be very cheap. Yes, you can use two back to back ordinary electrolytics, but will look tacky on the PCB. Joe

29th Dec 2022, 12:49 pm	#16
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,287	Re: Quartz clock movement query Five off topic posts moved to a new thread here:- https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=197044 __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.