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General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc. |
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24th Dec 2022, 9:01 pm | #1 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK.
Posts: 350
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Quartz clock movement query
Hi All, I have a similar problem to this one:
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=103354 my Kienzle movement has the same high frequency crystal; 4.194304MHz, and a similar-sounding chip : 1110A with the maker's mark a sort of scripted 'e' I've had this movement in an old converted wall clock since the 1970s, and it uses 2 x 'C' batteries. It no longer goes. I'd like some tips, please on how to test/check what might be the matter with it. I do have an old analogue scope,... should I expect to see a waveform on the crystal or would the scope probe suppress it? Thanks for your thoughts! |
24th Dec 2022, 9:08 pm | #2 |
Banned
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Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia
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Re: Quartz clock movement qyery
Can you take a picture of the track side of the PCB ?
Joe |
25th Dec 2022, 2:05 am | #3 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK.
Posts: 350
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
Hi Joe, yes will do tomorrow, in the meantime have been reading another thread with a similar movement:
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=158324 Sadly this one ended up in the bin (spoiler alert)! |
25th Dec 2022, 8:21 am | #4 |
Triode
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Rawalpindi, Pakistan.
Posts: 15
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
tune a sw radio 4.194304MHz for chk osc. easy chk osc frequency.
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25th Dec 2022, 12:09 pm | #5 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK.
Posts: 350
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
Here's a pic of the circuit board - the white wire is there to bridge the on/off switch.
Thanks for the sw radio tip! |
25th Dec 2022, 10:01 pm | #6 |
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
I would think there is nothing much to go wrong with that board. Of course, saying that I am assuming the chip still works and that coil isnt open circuit. There is an "orange blob " that I am assuming is a capacitor. I would be starting there.
A s that capacitor looks to be electrolytic, its a prime suspect for drying out. I dont know what value it is so you will have to dissemble the unit to see, and change it. I cannot see that it would cost more than about a quid, even if its something special. If you take the PCB off the mechanism we can see what else might be hiding in there. Joe |
26th Dec 2022, 2:09 pm | #7 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK.
Posts: 350
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
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26th Dec 2022, 9:31 pm | #8 | |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK.
Posts: 350
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
Quote:
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28th Dec 2022, 3:12 pm | #9 | |
Octode
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 1,351
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
Quote:
If you haven't got one then just measure using a series cap (say 10pF) to the crystal. Make sure the cap is at the measuring end of the lead. One end of the crstal will be the oscillator 'output' and more able to stand loading, the other end is the input to the oscillator and more likely to be affected by a probe. |
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28th Dec 2022, 3:55 pm | #10 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Carmel, Llannerchymedd, Anglesey, UK.
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
I would not be convinced about a scope reading, even with a probe. Those circuits are very fussy about loading - same with some of the PIC oscillators. A nearby radio is a good suggestion.
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28th Dec 2022, 8:32 pm | #11 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK.
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
Thanks for everyone's advice. I'll dig out my elderly scope this evening and hope it fires up (in a good way) the circuit also contains 2 small value caps, no values, shown. Re the radio suggestion : the frequency 4.194304mhz is out of the range of any of the bands of my sw radio as are its harmonics.
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28th Dec 2022, 9:45 pm | #12 |
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
I can see one ceramic cap ( little grey square with black top )but it would be unlikely that it would fail.
Its an NPO cap ( indicated by black top ). I think everybody else here is assuming that nicam has a workshop equiped with all the do-dads. I am assuming the opposite. Joe |
28th Dec 2022, 11:24 pm | #13 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK.
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
I wouldn’t in any way want to dissuade or discourage you from trying to restore the clock movement to working order. After all, the bedrock of the forum is restoration, conservation and experimentation and there’s nothing like a ‘’success story’ to gladden the heart.
However, if the repair doesn’t go to plan, given that the movement itself is not original to the clock, you might wish to consider a replacement. I’ve done that a couple of times using MSF radio controlled movements, which aren’t expensive. You can get them with a smooth sweep silent movement, or a ‘tick’ movement which simulate the ticking second hand of a mechanical clock. Lots to choose from including kienzle. EG: https://www.dansclockshop.com/search...dio+controlled Hope that of interest. Good luck with the repair.
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29th Dec 2022, 12:24 am | #14 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
Well, I think my vaulting ambition got the better of me, and I managed to destroy the 2 47pf NPO caps but not before removing and measuring them - one was 47pf, and the other measured 41pf. The orange cap is a bipolar 20uf one and measured 24.94 uf, with an esr of 0.56 Ohms. The xtal has date of 1-76 marked on it. Looks like I'll be a while trying to source 2 47ph NPO caps without paying a ton in postage tho' I guess any will do temp. If I want to substitute the bipolar cap, I understand I can wire 2 electrolytics together, at least for now. Thanks for your help btw esp identifying the NPO caps - which I hadn't a clue about!
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29th Dec 2022, 4:42 am | #15 |
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
ALL of those capacitors will cost less than half a pint!!.
The 47Pf ceramic plates will need be identical to the origionals, because NPO is the temeperature co efficient of the capacitor. I dont mean they need be matched or identical in exact value, but they should be ceramic plate NPO's. What that means is that is does not change capacity with temperature, well, at least not very much. The bipolar electrolytic can be purchased in a very large variety of qualities. From real rubbish, to something very nicely made and will last years. It will still be very cheap. Yes, you can use two back to back ordinary electrolytics, but will look tacky on the PCB. Joe |
29th Dec 2022, 12:49 pm | #16 |
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Re: Quartz clock movement query
Five off topic posts moved to a new thread here:-
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=197044
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