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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 12:21 am   #81
dave walsh
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

What Frank said [at 69*] seems to chime with my recollections at 24*. I get that the Regs are specifically tied into insurance liability these days, with all that now implies but would something completely disastrous ever be tied into a double socket When is liability ever established or admitted-can anyone quote a conclusive example [without prejudice] of that happening, other than an "on-balance" court ruling? I've not seen it. I suspect this debate would just be repeated in court with good arguments and references on both sides. As with Medical Liabilty, unless it totally smacks you in the face, there's always a lot of supposition and grey areas when it comes down to it, no matter what the rules apparently say. It's a whole new interpretation Industry really in every walk of life!

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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 12:21 am   #82
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Yes Charlie, you're right - I've been skimming it, and have already found some interesting stuff. Just have to remember that some of info might have been superseded by amendments. Thanks again.

Mike
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 12:24 am   #83
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Yes true Charlie,
The current capacity charts have not changed but the max Zs tables have changed with the Cmin factor @95% the previous values plus quite a few other things
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 12:46 am   #84
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

"would something completely disastrous ever be tied into a double socket"

I agree that it's very unlikely - but probably no more unlikely than a broken neutral or line causing a fire - and I think that's considered a significant hazard. But you may be right that it might be impossible to tie it to a very specific cause rather than just saying that it was down to an unspecified electrical fault.

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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 12:46 am   #85
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulevardier View Post
Yes Charlie, you're right - I've been skimming it, and have already found some interesting stuff. Just have to remember that some of info might have been superseded by amendments. Thanks again.
Well I am glad you found some use for it Mike as I was just about to take it down as it appeared to be neither useful or ornament
Roll on 2028 (for some ) and the 18th edition for free eh.
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 1:12 am   #86
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Ha ha! If I'm still around in 2028 I probably won't be able to even see, let alone understand, the 18th edition - or anything else!

Last edited by Boulevardier; 2nd Jun 2018 at 1:23 am.
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 9:18 am   #87
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

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I have exactly that situation. Toaster and kettle plugged into one twin socket along with dishwasher and washing machine plugged into another. Probably fed from the same ring main too.
Likewise - in my case it's a 3kW kettle and a 900W microwave, and I make sure I never have them on at the same time as they share a twin outlet.
We also have a small fan heater to keep our feet warm when we are sitting at the computer (it's a cold corner!) and I never go straight to the 2Kw setting, I always let the 1kW element warm up before hitting the 'full blast' switch to keep the cold surge down.
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 1:20 pm   #88
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

"I always let the 1kW element warm up before hitting the 'full blast' switch to keep the cold surge down."

That's smart thinking!
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 7:24 pm   #89
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

My understanding is that the resistance wire used for heating elements has a relatively low resistance temperature coefficient and so does not suffer from the large current surge that you get with cold Tungsten filaments.
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 8:43 pm   #90
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

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I have exactly that situation. Toaster and kettle plugged into one twin socket
In the work kitchenette we have the standard equipment provision of Kettles 3kW, 2 off, and Socket 13 Amp Double, 1 off.

This has fairly hard use as we have Thirsty Employees, 20 off, and Tea Breaks, 1 off.
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 10:32 pm   #91
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Do we worry too much?
Our 13A plug is the finest domestic mains connector bar none.

I have over the years grossly overloaded and abused them using multiple load banks of up to 6kw each to heat communications cabins to test the aircon. And yes, two in a double socket was not unusual with fuses overrated.
When I look at the American 117v bipin plug I shudder. And when they are used on 240v in the far east they are terrifying.

We had hundreds of catering boilers drawing a full 3kw for hours on end. 2 or up to 6 on a single feed in popup catering jobs.
They used to burn out the crimp terminals and wiring under the elements regularly and heat the 1.25mm flexes but never had plug failures unless the fuses were loose.
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 1:25 am   #92
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

"Our 13A plug is the finest domestic mains connector bar none."

I would certainly agree with that! I've also looked at some of those foreign systems and plugs/sockets, and thought "eeugh!"

I also think the concept of the UK ring-main is a brilliant compromise between efficiency/economy and reliability. I do think, though, that there might be a few practical issues that could have been smoothed out in the implementation and regulation...

Mike
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 1:38 am   #93
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Mike has summed it up brilliantly after 92 posts! If only there was this attention to detail elsewhere in society Like the offset mortgage, the Ring Main was something that the relevant industries kept to themselves for a vey long time. Enough is probaly more than enough I venture to suggest!

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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 11:12 am   #94
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Ah, so perfection really is in the lap of the Gods then. There can't be many mass produced items that can't have some detail improved by looking back over past experience. If only we could do that first!
At work we had a program called, I think, Imagine. We had to imagine the future, and then theorise how we'd got there. Cost a fortune, but the result was probably that there aren't any short cuts.
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 9:07 pm   #95
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

I must admit that I had forgotten that double 13 amp sockets weren't capable of supplying two 13 amp loads at the same time. I wonder why manufacturers don't simply uprate the internal busbars so that you can, this is a mystery. Also I agree yes the British 13 amp plug is the best in the world. The only thing better in some ways is the old 15 amp plug. I'm sure those big plug pins could take 60 amps without getting more than slightly warm. I remember in Florida having to borrow an electric iron, the plug pins were corroded green and also the plug kept falling out the socket I ended up holding it In while mum did the ironing, such fun.
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 9:26 pm   #96
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There can't be many mass produced items that can't have some detail improved by looking back over past experience. If only we could do that first!
Indeed, but experience is a bad teacher. Gives you the exam first; the lessons come afterwards.

Al.
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 10:20 pm   #97
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

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The only thing better in some ways is the old 15 amp plug. I'm sure those big plug pins could take 60 amps without getting more than slightly warm.
And one soon developed the technique of holding the socket with one hand and pulling the plug with the other to stop the socket parting company from the wall.
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 12:05 am   #98
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Oscar foxtrot thats very true, why were they always so hard to unplug? I have one 15 amp outlet in my workshop even today, unplugging is still a two handed job and the socket must be 50 years old at least. I think it's part of the reason I keep an adaptor in it all the time just makes things a tiny bit easier
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 6:40 am   #99
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahs radios View Post
I must admit that I had forgotten that double 13 amp sockets weren't capable of supplying two 13 amp loads at the same time. I wonder why manufacturers don't simply uprate the internal busbars so that you can, this is a mystery.
That extra bit of brass, copper or whatever would cost a few pence.

Quote:
I remember in Florida having to borrow an electric iron, the plug pins were corroded green and also the plug kept falling out the socket I ended up holding it In while mum did the ironing, such fun.
In the same situation I would have chosen your job, despite the danger!
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 7:14 am   #100
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Default Re: 13A Twin sockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahs radios View Post
I must admit that I had forgotten that double 13 amp sockets weren't capable of supplying two 13 amp loads at the same time. I wonder why manufacturers don't simply uprate the internal busbars so that you can, this is a mystery.
But I'd have thought the internal busbars would be capable of supplying two 13A loads? they are part of a ring main fused at 30A.

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