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Old 5th Jul 2020, 6:51 pm   #41
Radio Wrangler
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

It was back in the feeding frenzy for 3G licences that the government cottoned onto the idea that megahertz is megabucks... well, gigabucks overall for them.

I don't think they've grasped the small fact that not all frequencies are as marketable as 2GHz.

The recently 'liberated' part of the TV spectrum will need larger antennae than people have got used to on portable gizmos. 88 to 108MHz would be hilarious. I suspect if they freed up band II they might not be able to sell it off for a fraction of what just the bureaucracy aspect cost in the clearance.

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Old 5th Jul 2020, 7:27 pm   #42
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Yes if anyone saw the aerials on a lot of older VHF wireless microphones (which didn't hide the antenna in the mic body) then they would realise how stupid using lower frequencies for mobile applications, the wire antennae on my Trantec S3500 and AT Liberator is not something I would want on my mobile phone. Plus think of the power levels required if less efficient antennas were used at these lower frequencies.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 9:46 pm   #43
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Well that is good news. I don't own a DAB radio but I've been on field tests of DAB car radios & I've never understood why anyone would put up with the radio muting regularly in weak field areas. Everybody's different of course but it annoys the hell out of me. Weak reception areas I can accept but not those dead spots.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 10:39 pm   #44
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

If they put big efficient pull-up aerials on iPhones, the kids would look as k00l as I did in the 90s.
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My first two (900MHz only) phones.


The Panasonic lost its aerial while it was still my current business phone, I had a piece of wire coat hanger in its place.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 12:30 am   #45
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Now scale it for 100MHz!

Of course you can keep the antenna retracted when you're not on a call, but bang goes your sensitivity for incoming calls.

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Old 6th Jul 2020, 1:01 am   #46
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

My first mobile had a retractable aerial too.
I got it for two quid at a junk shop and had to pay another two quid for the charger.
It lasted several years until my boss got fed up with me talking into a brick and gave me one left over from the sales team.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 7:00 am   #47
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

OT, Yes my first mobile also had a retractable antenna, a Telital PV129 on Vodaphones new PAYG network.
Twas a Christmas present form my father, didn't get used past the included airtime as whilst it was PAYG you still had line rental and all top-ups AFAIK were gone by the end of the month and as such not only did you have to top up £15 a month half of that went on line rental.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 1:45 pm   #48
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Back in the late 1980s I had a Motorola 8500X with an aerial as in the photo which, given its size indicates operation a fairly low frequency. I never bothered to investigate at the time but have since wondered what frequency band it used - I'm sure someone on here will know. Some later variations on this model had a much smaller aerial.

In the 90s I had an NEC exactly as the model in Rambo1152's post which I think was my first digital phone. At home, in order to receive calls, I had to keep it, aerial extended, at the window by my front door. (Even today it is a good idea to go upstairs when the mobile rings.)

I don't consider there will be a switchover, as such a la TV. Unlike TV, it's not as if the wideband analogue has to be removed to make way and as has been pointed out upthread there are few alternative uses for the FM bands. However, folk have said to me in passing that "of course, the Government wants to sell them [the AM and FM bands] off to make money for the treasury". (I've avoided explaining the practicalities of mobile phones operating on the MW band but this is often the assumption of Joe Public.) That assumption and in turn the assumption that a DSO will similar to TV and 'make my radio obsolete' is useful in pushing the sale of DAB sets. If one wishes to encourage the uptake of DAB, etc., perhaps there's little inclination to disabuse the public.

I'd say that as long as there is a listenership that makes an FM station viable then the band will be used. After all, despite the loss of many MW stations there are, ignoring those of the big operators that remain on heritage ILR frequencies purely for licensing coverage reasons, still stations operating and still people listening to them. The general duplication of analogue and DAB outlets will go sooner or later but given the difficulties of terrain there will still be FM fillers or even AM in very difficult areas - In addition to a few BBC locals I think there are still some Radio 4 MW relays operating.

It's a shame that with all the noise interference AM is becoming less and less viable. It could have been useful for low power community stations and with less on the band, the bandwidth could have been increased to provide the audio quality that some of us remember in 'the good old days'.

Whilst I don't wish for this to develop into a political discussion, for me, the loss of simple point-to-point radio communication is a worry. We live in a time where the internet is vulnerable to attack, not only by hackers looking for financial gain but by potentially hostile governments. I think it would be very unwise to put all broadcast communication eggs into one basket.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 3:19 pm   #49
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

My feelings are that the internet will replace most things. Theoretically it could be simplex but with the (accelerating) rising trend in 'connected' cars it probably would not need to be.

Personally I use MW daily and have recently started to do so much more in the car too. When I travelled a lot I used to prefer it quiet. My experience is that, although DAB and even FM is obviously less noisy, MW is well listenable to. I have one of those hybrid cars and can say that there is no obvious interference from the electronics. My feelings are that there have been years of poor quality radios and good design can sort many of the problems but obviously that is not likely to be the chosen way forward.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 3:46 pm   #50
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

To be fair to the government, they don't want to move national stations off FM to flog off the frequencies. They have always accepted that FM will continue to be used for broadcasting in some form, as there's no practical alternative use for it.

There was a period about 15 years ago when digital radio was seen as 'good' in some vague undefined way, and the big media companies like Bauer and Global were very keen to 'encourage' people to access their digital streams, particularly via DAB where the multiplex slots were quite expensive. Somebody had the bright idea of forcing the BBC to abandon FM, and as most radio listening is to BBC stations this would 'encourage' the public to buy DAB radios.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 4:04 pm   #51
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

There is one issue we've missed. We're concentrating on the spectrum space. But the upkeep of big antenna masts for these low frequencies is expensive. If funding is cut, the masts will come down. They will be seen as a safety liability without regular maintenance, inspection and insurance.

I think there will only be small stations with local coverage.

The Americans have low power local transmitters transmitting tourist info along some of their roads. I remember driving from Point Reyes to San Francisco and one little AM station telling me about how Olema, which I was driving through, was the epicentre of 'the big one' that flattened the city.

I think we'll find other uses for the frequencies, but I don't see big broadcasters being it.

The internet may be a case of all the eggs in one basket, but that sort of concern hasn't stopped mankind yet and as of this year, a lot of attention has switched onto the internet.

Sideways thought:

Wouldn't it have been sensible to have declared a few global 'muck heap' frequencies and required SMPS to use them? If the things are going to act like transmitters, then maybe they should be treated like them. This was done for industrial RF heaters.

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Old 6th Jul 2020, 4:53 pm   #52
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Somebody had the bright idea of forcing the BBC to abandon FM, and as most radio listening is to BBC stations this would 'encourage' the public to buy DAB radios.
That's how I've always seen it too. And, I wonder how much pressure came from radio manufacturers, desperate for some technical innovation to generate new sales. Everyone having to throw out and replace their (millions of) FM radios would work wonders for that!

Mike
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 5:14 pm   #53
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

100 transmission systems and I still can't find the Light Programme on my DAC90..J.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 6:28 pm   #54
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

If or when MW radio from BBC continues to broadcast, it might need a dual diversity RX to be used. Like some old AR88D were used many years ago.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 9:39 pm   #55
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

My last three (at least) cars have had DAB radios, I've often noticed them failing over to FM when the DAB signal fails, but I can't say I've noticed them doing the opposite, which tells you a lot.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 9:47 pm   #56
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Sideways thought:

Wouldn't it have been sensible to have declared a few global 'muck heap' frequencies and required SMPS to use them? If the things are going to act like transmitters, then maybe they should be treated like them. This was done for industrial RF heaters.

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27.120MHz a muck heap? Heaven forfend!
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 10:10 pm   #57
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinshack View Post
If or when MW radio from BBC continues to broadcast, it might need a dual diversity RX to be used. Like some old AR88D were used many years ago.
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Old 7th Jul 2020, 8:23 am   #58
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Default Re: Digital switchover delayed until 2032

Time to switch off this thread before is becomes even more diverse.

The analogue switch off, if it happens, can be discussed again nearer to the event in 12 year's time. By that time I expect I too will have been switched off.

Thread closed.
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