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Old 31st Aug 2020, 10:38 pm   #161
Red to black
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

You know what it was ? climbing to the top of your chosen tree and still finding out you are just a monkey
All of that technical knowledge and training wiped out almost over night!
Luckily I applied a lot of skills learned (wasted?) into another industry, still what a waste!
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 12:27 am   #162
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

I think some engineers did struggle with unfamiliar sets and probably disliked them automatically. I worked on a lot of Thorn sets early on and had no problems fixing everything from 3000s to 9000s to the TX series. some engineers I knew didn't like them especially the 9000 . One local dealer that had a repair service would send all the Thorn 9000 sets to me as his engineers just didn't want to know.
The T20 was easy enough to fix the reason I say that they were poor was due to the amount of new ones that either didn't work straight from the box or broke down shortly after they were installed. The QC at the factory must have been minimal ! Once they had been out for a while and the common faults sorted out they would be reasonably OK. The Pye 725 was a budget model that replaced the CT205 and without all the 110 degree correction and the lower scanning power needed by the 90 degree tube was much more reliable than the 731. There is no denying that the Ct200 was a pile though ! Again easy enough to fix but a real cheapo set with a low focus tube which looked poor fairly quickly. Again later sets using a conventional tube were better but still poor compared to the Japanese sets both in performance and reliability.
Philips tried hard with the G11 to match the Japanese sets and to a degree succeeded but again early sets had their problems , some due to poor components some down to poor soldering of the PCBs and some down to poor design which was rectified by modifications on the later models.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 8:53 am   #163
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I think the basic problem with UK designed and made sets was using the cheapest possible components.

In particular, using Erie carbon composition printed circuit mount resistors, which tended to drift in value (especially in higher voltage parts of the TV's circuit) or didn't have a high enough power rating.

Then there were those plastic/resin cased TCC Elkomold and Callins electrolytic capacitors with short life spans - possibly due to the heat in a valve TV.

At least the mainland Europe made TVs I used to work on in the 1970s used carbon film resistors and better quality electrolytics.

The difference between mainland European and UK TV purchasers was that the UK ones were driven by the lowest price, rather than quality. This might be due to the UK having a lot more TVs out on rental, rather than bought outright....?

The only major UK TV manufacturer that made the reliability and quality grade (eventually) was Thorn EMI Ferguson, but they were too late in making the change (TX9, 10, 90 & 100) and were sold to Thomson in 1987. That didn't end well either, did it? Even Philips had to throw in the towel - eventually.

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Old 1st Sep 2020, 10:07 am   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzlevision View Post
I think the basic problem with UK designed and made sets was using the cheapest possible components.

Thorn EMI Ferguson, but they were too late in making the change (TX9, 10, 90 & 100) and were sold to Thomson in 1987. That didn't end well either, did it? Even Philips had to throw in the towel - eventually.
No, it didn't! luckily I had given up with Ferguson before the French cr4p was produced ! I wonder why the ICC5 etc was so unreliable? The common faults list ran into pages and pages... Yes there was the odd one that went for thirty years without a fault I'm sure but the majority were pretty poor compared to other makes. There were of course engineers that liked them and could fix them so that they never went wrong again but I preferred well made sets that were built properly designed properly and gave good service we were after all in business to make a profit and keep customers happy!
How many times would a badly made set fail a few months after repair for an completely unconnected fault to the original repair? Then you had the choice of trying to convince the customer it was a different fault or repair it again at your cost... "It was all right until you repaired it last" !
I hated the Bl**dy Thompson things and took great delight in dispatching them into the skip!
I sold up and moved into running a car service garage in 2000 so I missed the Painter chip fiasco and the widescreen tubes that failed prematurely. People are much more understanding with cars, if you repair the screen-washers and three months later they get a puncture they don't expect a free repair!
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 1:40 pm   #165
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

Quote:
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I think the basic problem with UK designed and made sets was using the cheapest possible components.
But why do competent designers go down that route? Perhaps the buy UK ethic reduced their choices a little, but everything comes down to market size in the end. Manufacturing for a small market is markedly different to worldwide mass markets. Niche manufacturers are alive and well thankfully, but mass markets mean that tiny margins resulting from good quality ingredients make good profits overall. Once marketing went international the writing was on the wall.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 4:02 pm   #166
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzlevision View Post
I think the basic problem with UK designed and made sets was using the cheapest possible components.

In particular, using Erie carbon composition printed circuit mount resistors, which tended to drift in value (especially in higher voltage parts of the TV's circuit) or didn't have a high enough power rating.

Then there were those plastic/resin cased TCC Elkomold and Callins electrolytic capacitors with short life spans - possibly due to the heat in a valve TV.

At least the mainland Europe made TVs I used to work on in the 1970s used carbon film resistors and better quality electrolytics.

The difference between mainland European and UK TV purchasers was that the UK ones were driven by the lowest price, rather than quality. This might be due to the UK having a lot more TVs out on rental, rather than bought outright....?

The only major UK TV manufacturer that made the reliability and quality grade (eventually) was Thorn EMI Ferguson, but they were too late in making the change (TX9, 10, 90 & 100) and were sold to Thomson in1987. That didn't end well either, did it? Even Philips had to throw in the towel - eventually.
Looking back on it, British setmakers just used the same companies that had always served the trade, like erie hunts callins dubilier ect same as the continental makers also used local suppliers, i do think some of ours were struggling to keep up with the rapid pace of development and the demands of innovative new circuitry, like capacitors that fried in smps sections, thorn did seem to be well into custom parts though, and seemed to use a variety of special film resistors in their stuff, apart from philips they were the most technically advanced home manufacturer of the time.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 4:09 pm   #167
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

For sometime now, I've been pondering about the failure and demise of our consumer electronics and motor industries. It's sad to think of decades of research, development and manufacturing ability has been lost. We all seem to know where things went wrong so surely there must now be a new opportunity for an enterprising business to start up volume manufacturing again. It would be quite an ambitious undertaking starting from scratch to compete with established rivals and would need a huge investment to start the ball rolling. Maybe the business could initially be part nationalised ie run by the state. I would hope the government could support such a venture, though with the huge debts that have mounted up over the coronavirus crisis that probably won't happen.

For TVs for example, the product range would have to be minimal but well accepted by the public like Ford's policy in the 1970s of only producing a few popular models. So, keep things simple, limited product range but of top quality and reinvest to stay up to date. Surely any business that operates like this should succeed.
I know most people are going to say its down to labour costs but if the effort is put into making a product that is tailored for the most efficient production methods then this will keep costs down.

Just my dotty thoughts.

Regards,
Symon

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Old 1st Sep 2020, 4:46 pm   #168
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

With automatic component insertion it shouldn't matter where any machine is sited, but there are wider problems, logistics for one, and politics (please note, another of our exceptions apply here) also play a major part.
However, we're deviating further from the thread subject.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 12:45 pm   #169
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

Two sets we wouldn't have in the workshop just in case were the solid-state Korting and the Bush 2550, this latter I think being the Siemens mentioned earlier. Both were fire risks. The Korting had the trip panel at the top of the chassis. When the set failed, there was a wirewound by the thyristor that could glow red hot, taking the plastic back and much of the house with it. Having seen a Bush with virtually no chassis left I decided we wouldn't have these in case of the 'you looked at it last' accusation.
I remember having a terrible feeling when a, fortunately non-fatal, fire was started by the TV we'd just repaired - a plastic portable Salora J chassis. When the fire investigation had taken place imagine my relief when it was revealed a burning candle was left on the top of the set before the owner fell asleep...
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 10:04 am   #170
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

Hi all,
Well I was never in the trade so my experiences are more from my Hobby.
I did however I did work for a few years as a Technician at the College where I had studied the 2240. We had lots of G11s to teach with and although they were really good (once you had replaced the tube busting smoothing cap), these poor old sets suffered from years of having the same components replaced again and again, so it was not so easy to keep them going. I had fun making them go wrong though, filing the underside of resistors or painting different bands on, blowing up transistors and diodes with mains charged electrolytics etc.

In my hobby, well my third set was a TV22 with a dead lopty which for a 16 year old seemd a bit daunting.
The last set I restored was a nightmare. It was an HMV905 with all the TV bits missing. After all the hard work, the low bandwith of these sets leaves one with a rather uninspiring picture. The depth of the chassis and the component density can't have made them popular with engineers either. The pre-war 7" Ekco sets give much beter results. Still it is a really nice bit of furniture and a decent radio.

I'm currently restoring two nasty basket cases which are very slow projects. One is the Baird Garrick with the nasty EHT rectifier bracket that wants to kill me (see photo). And the other is a unique pre-war Electrostatic survivior that has had two of its chassis stripped and re-cad plated. There is no circuit info for this set and it is only 90% complete. Mind you it has a good tube though (Ediswan 12H), so I suppose we will get there in the end.

Oh, I forgot the Spencer-West 957. It has a non-isolated chassis inside an earthed metal case. I've included a picture showing how the reverse mounted speaker sits on the back acting as the CRT neck protector
Spencer-West described it as an ideal second set

Cheers
Andy
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Old 24th Sep 2020, 9:25 pm   #171
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

I dont think anyone has mentioned the Matsui 209R / T.

These really were awful, they never produced sharp pictures, you couldn't focus them and worse, they were a fire risk.

After someone's house went up in flames there was a huge recall operation to replace a resistor in the power supply and cut a bit of the print.

These sets were made in Thailand, and although the samples were to safety spec, to cut costs, the production line wasn't.

The main problems were never sorted out and that was that when a certain capacitor started failing, all the output voltages went sky high.

This type of power supply was also used in the Onwa range of chassis, and it was one of these branded Saisho or Matsui that caused a fire after a power supply in which a young man died.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 9:47 pm   #172
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

Yesterday, I received a service call from a customer who asked me if I would like to take a look at an old TV set. He informed me over phone that was a flat screen set and warned me it was very heavy. I assumed the set would be a CRT model but in fact it turned out to be a twelve year old Hitachi plasma screen model. I rarely baulk at lifting TV sets, after all I've been doing it for almost sixty years but this one beat me. In order to test the set t took two of us to manoeuvre the big beast into position and take a picture of it..
The set works OK but is an analogue tuner model so it'll need a Freeview box to make it fully usable.
So to some up it's not the worst TV set but it is certainly one of the heaviest.
Heavier than a standard 3 X 2 foot paving stone?
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 8:27 am   #173
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Not worth the strain on your body David just to repair an obsolete monster. J.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 11:22 am   #174
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

They weren't that bad! Well made and with very few faults, though older than he says, I suspect. A quality Fujitsu panel as well.
I think the Pioneer 50" or LG 60" plasmas are heavier though. And as to weight it's a lightweight compared to the CRTs - the 36" Tosh, the 37" Grundig with the transit bars - and even the more humble Thorn 2000, Sony KV2704 would give it a run for its money...
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 1:53 am   #175
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Default Re: Which was the worst TV set / chassis you had to repair

Mate of mine acquired a Pioneer 50" plasma recently, it took 3 of us to get it onto his telly unit. Whether that's because the plasma is exceptionally heavy or the three of us are exceptionally unfit is open to debate...I'm happy to concede it's a bit of both...

Regards,
Paul
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