Valves for Process Control, eg : PID Loop - Page 2 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

woodchips · 10th Jan 2014, 9:43 pm

Have you seen the thread "Home brew analog computer system" on the eev.com blog?

There is some discussion about analogue computer books including valve days. One to start off with is Electronic Analog and Hybrid Computers by Korn but does have much on transistors in it.

Aircraft used op amps but they seem to be the 400Hz type using two phase motors.

Ed_Dinning · 11th Jan 2014, 7:30 pm

Hi Gents, the definitive work would be the Teledyne Philbrick book on op amps; closely followed by the Burr-Brown book on how to solve most equations/ generate functions using op amps.
Both of these go for high prices and I don't thing I've seen any downloadable copies.

Ed

govjohn · 15th Jan 2014, 11:24 am

Hi all, on this forum about 4 lines up there is a thread started by QUENIX about Elliot magnetic amplifiers. This contains a link to a book, Elliot Automation, which has a lot about Valve analogue process control including the worlds largest analogue computer TRIDAC. I've just spent?/wasted more time than I should reading it.
John.

Radio Wrangler · 15th Jan 2014, 11:57 am

Look up Philbrick, GAP and Bob Pease.

Lots on early opamps with valves, geraniums etc. Biggest users were the military for servos doing things like guns tracking targets.

Another early servo control technology was the Ward-Leonard set. Two of these used to point the Jodrell Bank dish.

David

McMurdo · 22nd Jan 2014, 12:55 am

Closest I've come across is in industrial DC motor speed controls in the textile industry. We used to service 'warper' machines for Velcro Selectus here in Stoke. They had AEI shunt motor drives with all-valve technology, the output valves being mercury vapour thyratrons. They were taken out in, oh 1995 or so and replaced with solid-state, the factory was razed last year and is now a housing estate.
Not exactly PID but I had a call-out to an NC machine tool locally, a few years back and it had literally wardrobes full of valve racks to drive it..something that would now be controlled by a computer; I think the electronics were made by Brush.
In the potteries we saw few valved stuff, ancient temperature control was by bimetallic strip and pressure by mechanical bellows-style actuators until the early 1970's.

I suspect compact PID controls were probably facilitated, if not created by the solid state means when they arrived.

matthewhouse · 28th Jan 2014, 11:24 pm

This video is worth a look, not very detailed electrical wise, but some impressive machinery with valve controls from 1948.

10th Jan 2014, 9:43 pm	#21
woodchips Octode Join Date: May 2010 Location: Grantham, Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 1,177	Re: Valves for Process Control, eg : PID Loop Have you seen the thread "Home brew analog computer system" on the eev.com blog? There is some discussion about analogue computer books including valve days. One to start off with is Electronic Analog and Hybrid Computers by Korn but does have much on transistors in it. Aircraft used op amps but they seem to be the 400Hz type using two phase motors.

11th Jan 2014, 7:30 pm	#22
Ed_Dinning Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 8,195	Re: Valves for Process Control, eg : PID Loop Hi Gents, the definitive work would be the Teledyne Philbrick book on op amps; closely followed by the Burr-Brown book on how to solve most equations/ generate functions using op amps. Both of these go for high prices and I don't thing I've seen any downloadable copies. Ed

15th Jan 2014, 11:24 am	#23
govjohn Pentode Join Date: May 2011 Location: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK. Posts: 100	Re: Valves for Process Control, eg : PID Loop Hi all, on this forum about 4 lines up there is a thread started by QUENIX about Elliot magnetic amplifiers. This contains a link to a book, Elliot Automation, which has a lot about Valve analogue process control including the worlds largest analogue computer TRIDAC. I've just spent?/wasted more time than I should reading it. John.

15th Jan 2014, 11:57 am	#24
Radio Wrangler Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland, UK. Posts: 22,903	Re: Valves for Process Control, eg : PID Loop Look up Philbrick, GAP and Bob Pease. Lots on early opamps with valves, geraniums etc. Biggest users were the military for servos doing things like guns tracking targets. Another early servo control technology was the Ward-Leonard set. Two of these used to point the Jodrell Bank dish. David __________________ Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done

22nd Jan 2014, 12:55 am	#25
McMurdo Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK. Posts: 5,276	Re: Valves for Process Control, eg : PID Loop Closest I've come across is in industrial DC motor speed controls in the textile industry. We used to service 'warper' machines for Velcro Selectus here in Stoke. They had AEI shunt motor drives with all-valve technology, the output valves being mercury vapour thyratrons. They were taken out in, oh 1995 or so and replaced with solid-state, the factory was razed last year and is now a housing estate. Not exactly PID but I had a call-out to an NC machine tool locally, a few years back and it had literally wardrobes full of valve racks to drive it..something that would now be controlled by a computer; I think the electronics were made by Brush. In the potteries we saw few valved stuff, ancient temperature control was by bimetallic strip and pressure by mechanical bellows-style actuators until the early 1970's. I suspect compact PID controls were probably facilitated, if not created by the solid state means when they arrived. __________________ Kevin

28th Jan 2014, 11:24 pm	#26
matthewhouse Octode Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Willand, Devon, UK. Posts: 1,023	Re: Valves for Process Control, eg : PID Loop This video is worth a look, not very detailed electrical wise, but some impressive machinery with valve controls from 1948.