Unrealistic expectations?

[PsychMan]

With the greatest of respect to Edward who is a most learned contributor here, The original post does read like a clichéd rant of an older person directed at todays youngsters.

Some people like myself came here years ago without a clue and now have a slight fragment of a clue , having become inspired by the old technology that is appreciated, restored and a subject of learning on this forum.

Maybe for every 10 threads of "why doesn't my record player work", we might get 1 or 2 new long term members. And for each new member that's more old technology saved from the dump, which is a good thing.

Younger generations might see things differently, might rush into new interests or take longer to learn some things, but that's offset by their native abilities with computers and smart devices. Not necessarily good or bad traits, just different. The old and the young can learn a great deal from each other and I feel its important to be tolerant of such new posters. You never know who is behind the computer, potentially a senior member of the forum one day

[dave walsh]

You make the same points that have come up before from what I would describe as "the other point of view " on this PsychMan but a number of the remaining nine out of ten are quite different to your approach and [frankly] sometimes very hard work especially when directly seeking technical "advice". You have survived and got on well but some people don't listen and [effectively] make demands. They use your very own points against Forum members ie "I'm a newcomer and expected to be treated better", when they have been treated well and patiently but failed to interact properly themselves and resent being asked reasonable questions. I think that is quite manipulative and impolite behaviour. I've never seen anyone treated badly but I've seen very poor and self centred behaviour from those who seem to want an "individual free tuition service" [as another member put it recently]. Then they disappear with no thanks or warning!

It's more of a social problem than a technical or generational one in my view and not unique to the Forum. Try behaving like that in a pub where you are not known! When individuals turn up saying "treat me gently" and suspiciously many do, I wonder what's been happening with them on other Forums and why. It's a conundrum and a cultural clash perhaps but more members are now recognising that dashing straight in unconditionally doesn't always work. Is it "Metoo or Mefirst? You're call as the Americans say

Dave

[Nuvistor]

I try to remember, but often forget, to point to Darren’s excellent post on record players or Paul’s on radios. There is an unbelievable amount of information in those two articles and I have always taken the view that if you want to fix something, you need a basic idea of how it works.
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=75401

https://www.vintage-radio.com/repair...ion/index.html

A read of those articles would answer many of a new posters questions.

[Bufo Bill]

I'm thirty eight and therefore old enough to have bought vinyl in my early teens. I love being able to pick up an item and say "This is an album called 'Salutations From the Ghetto Nation' by Warrior Soul and it was mine when I was twelve and it is mine now and always." Physical Media is to me as addictive as the music on it.
I am too young however to remember Valve technology and showing me a Quad II for the first time seemed to me to have the same exoticism as showing an iPhone to a 1950's Electrical Engineer ( if one could time travel).
Both these things are addictive for more reasons than the job they were designed for. Aesthetically, Historically, Emotionally. They all resonate in my head and heart every time I use them. Soon after I realised I was hooked on this stuff I felt perhaps it was an eccentric form of modern day Brand Worship (I do occasionally want to bow before my Quad Altar), but then Questions: how does a valve work? What is that scratchy sound when I adjust the Volume Pot? You splendid chaps and ladies teach me weekly. Perhaps out of Brand Worship has come that quality that truly transcends: the thirst for Knowledge.
Thank you all so much.
Bill.

[PsychMan]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

You make the same points that have come up before from what I would describe as "the other point of view " on this PsychMan but a number of the remaining nine out of ten are quite different to your approach and [frankly] sometimes very hard work especially when directly seeking technical "advice". You have survived and got on well but some people don't listen and [effectively] make demands. They use your very own points against Forum members ie "I'm a newcomer and expected to be treated better", when they have been treated well and patiently but failed to interact properly themselves and resent being asked reasonable questions. I think that is quite manipulative and impolite behaviour. I've never seen anyone treated badly but I've seen very poor and self centred behaviour from those who seem to want an "individual free tuition service" [as another member put it recently]. Then they disappear with no thanks or warning!

It's more of a social problem than a technical or generational one in my view and not unique to the Forum. Try behaving like that in a pub where you are not known! When individuals turn up saying "treat me gently" and suspiciously many do, I wonder what's been happening with them on other Forums and why. It's a conundrum and a cultural clash perhaps but more members are now recognising that dashing straight in unconditionally doesn't always work. Is it "Metoo or Mefirst? You're call as the Americans say

Dave

You make some good points there Dave , and I don't disagree with them overall. I just felt the original post of this thread came across as generally unwelcoming. Perhaps this was about a particular thread and I've missed the context.

Of course if people turn up, demand a lot then disappear without so much as a thanks or an update to their problem, Its inconsiderate at best. To complain someone hasn't quite bent over backwards far enough to help Is frankly taking the pee. I'm sure we can agree on that

In general there is a lack of etiquette online, which as you argue quite well wouldn't occur in real life. I like to think its because people aren't entirely ready for the internet and will get better with time. Of course there are other ways to interpret it

Adam

[dave walsh]

It's clear that we agree almost entirely Adam but overall, this Forum is nothing but friendly. Whenever this combines with the wider world though [as with the current retro fashion] exploitation can set in. It's a new group of people and sometimes with an agenda. Most of the hippy ideals were pretty good but got rapidly sucked up by business. Once the money and/or current fad gets involved

"It's just the same people in Kaftans" John Lennon

Cheers ,
Dave

[Radio Wrangler]

We'll get you out of that brand worship, Bill. There is a number of design whoopsies in Quad's products... overrun resistors and things like that. Give 'em a good mark, but could try harder There are plenty worse and a few better.

People come in a very wide variety of types. There are some people any sensible group would wish to avoid, and many they ought to welcome and encourage. Lots of people don't express themselves as well as they could and may come over quite different to what they really are like. Other people mis-read people they meet. Inevitably, errors will occur.

Sometimes an original post stirs up a discussion which seems to drive the original poster away, but that's only understood after some time as gone by and the OP has never appeared again. Did he present his interest badly? did we misunderstand him? or did we all just rush into continuation of one of the timeless debates (valve vs transistor etc.)? Probably our fault.

Sometimes an OP asks a question, gets useful answers and never posts anything on how it went, or even just a thank you. For the forum to maintain the interest of the people with the knowledge, they have to feel they do give help which has an effect. Feedback is important.

The amateur radio fora have their own equivalent. Someone posts "I'm looking for mods for Ikensu model XYZZY" and they're only looking for software switch key sequences to turn on features. They run screaming at the mention of soldering!

David

[julie_m]

There's certainly a little bit of "youth vs. experience" going on. It was ever thus; older people complained about me when I was young, and now I'm older I'm trying hard not to complain about young people. But they ask you for help, you tell them what to do, they do something completely different and then either blame you anyway when it doesn't work, or never utter a word of thanks if it does work ..... Ooooh! I've just seen cardigans on special offer when you buy three pairs of extra-support tights!

And if somebody hasn't "lurked" (i.e, read the forum as a guest) for awhile, and got to know the regular characters on the forum, then they may well feel a little intimidated. It must be a bit like stepping into a strange (in the sense that you've never been there before, I mean .....) country pub and all the locals turning round and staring at you .....

Unfortunately, there really is no way to sugar-coat it. Fixing up an old record player is not likely to be easy nor cheap. For a start, there's the cartridge problem. High-output cartridges haven't been manufactured for a long time now, and they die of old age whether used or not; if the crystal hasn't turned to goo, the rubber might well have perished. The "Chinese Cheapie" cartridges can often be used but need a preamplifier, and some power borrowed from somewhere. There are higher voltages present than today's young people are used to, and many record players were built with a live chassis. And as far as the typical UL84+UY85 or EL84+semiconductor rectifier machines go, most of them never actually sounded all that great anyway. At least the output transformers in them are usually OK .....

I don't think tape will ever make much of a comeback, for audio or video. The big thing it had going for it was self-recordability, and modern devices easily outperform it. Tape suffered from sequential access issues, drop-outs, noise if the recording level was too low, distortion if it was too high, dirt on the heads, guides, capstan or pinch roller, print-through, wow and flutter ..... But you could record it yourself -- your own voice, your favourite songs, someone else's favourite songs. Themed collections, music to evoke particular feelings, or recall certain events. Nowadays, you'd have a job to buy a phone that wasn't ready to shoot high-quality video, upload it to the Internet and share it literally within seconds.

[avocollector]

Surprised there is no general info out there to catch the Vinyl enthusiasts old and new - such as 'vinyl requires a specialist player that uses a fine needle called a stylus to follow the grooves in the recording etc etc'. Being 65 I am so happy with cd and digital after the lousy sound of the vinyl and earlier era. The first sign of improvement was tape with dolby, then the wonderful cd's came. Seems to me using vinyl is a bit like driving a trabant when there's a rolls available but each to their own I suppose.

[Hartley118]

Originally Posted by avocollector

Surprised there is no general info out there to catch the Vinyl enthusiasts old and new - such as 'vinyl requires a specialist player that uses a fine needle called a stylus to follow the grooves in the recording etc etc'. Being 65 I am so happy with cd and digital after the lousy sound of the vinyl and earlier era.........

I don't disagree about the improvement that suddenly became available with the CD - indeed, back then, it was very much part of my day job.

Not so sure though about the 'lousy sound' bit relating to vinyl. Perhaps more like comparing a vintage Rolls Royce Silver Cloud with today's model. A little less accurate, but with its own character, from clever outdated technology that nevertheless works remarkably well for its age.

Martin

[bluepilot]

Originally Posted by Hartley118

Not so sure though about the 'lousy sound' bit relating to vinyl.

I agree. With a decent system vinyl can sound very good. For me the problem was that you had to go through the hassle of getting the record on the turntable and up to speed and then carefully lowering the stylus on to it. You sat down to listen to the music and were just dozing off when 17 minutes later you had to get up and turn the record over. That meant waiting for it to slow down as the hydraulic reference turntable didn't take kindly to being stopped by hand. Either the belt came off the pulleys or it broke. Then going through the procedure of getting it going again. The dust brush had to be put on the record and then removed again. Not to mention the hassle of getting the record in and out of the sleeve without damaging it etc. etc. Much easier with an Ipod and you can listen to that on the train as well. I do wonder how long the present vinyl fad will last.

[Grubhead]

Gone are the days that you could go into Hi-Fi store and get slagged off for not knowing the difference between a ceramic and magnetic cartridge. Instead you can do it on-line on a forum like this

[Edward Huggins]

Originally Posted by bluepilot

I agree. With a decent system vinyl can sound very good. For me the problem was that you had to go through the hassle of getting the record on the turntable and up to speed and then carefully lowering the stylus on to it. You sat down to listen to the music and were just dozing off when 17 minutes later you had to get up and turn the record over. I do wonder how long the present vinyl fad will last.

Well, there's a simple answer to the issues associated with the labour of changing the record over, go get a BSR Autochanger!

[paulsherwin]

Originally Posted by Grubhead

Gone are the days that you could go into Hi-Fi store and get slagged off for not knowing the difference between a ceramic and magnetic cartridge. Instead you can do it on-line on a forum like this

I don't recall that ever happening here. The mods generally don't allow confrontational posting, although occasionally something slips through as we can't read every single post. We will intervene if you report it.

[mark_in_manc]

Originally Posted by Bufo Bill

I'm thirty eight and therefore old enough to have bought vinyl in my early teens. I love being able to pick up an item and say "This is an album called 'Salutations From the Ghetto Nation' by Warrior Soul and it was mine when I was twelve and it is mine now and always." Physical Media is to me as addictive as the music on it.

That's an interesting take on the issue which I had not considered. I'm a decade older that you (I thought I was amongst the last; most people I knew moved to CD in the early 90s). I know what you mean about the nostalgia of holding a record and thinking of where you were and what was going on when you bought it - though so many of mine were and are second hand that that gets a bit mixed up. I do remember having to scrub sticky who-knows-what off of 'Can't buy a thrill' from a great 2nd hand record shop in N.Street Romford, and another Richard Thompson album which was the ONLY one I ever bought new just because it was playing in a record shop when I happened to be in there. (I don't know why there was enough in my pocket that day - there never was normally).

I notice my memory getting a bit worse even though I'm a lot younger than many here on the forum. The existence of a physical album is in many ways an aide-memoir for me these days, in terms of the very existence of the material, and of the fact that I like it A bit like leaving a tool I need for work the next day on the floor in the way of the front door. Cultural signposts of ones life, placed strategically to be fallen over.

[bluepilot]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

Well, there's a simple answer to the issues associated with the labour of changing the record over, go get a BSR Autochanger!

A BSR autochanger? Now you're talking! Even better than a Dansette. Just buy two copies of each record and you can stack them A side up, B side up, etc. and hear them the way nature intended. Alternatively buy a Rock-Ola juke box like the neighbour here did although whether the sides play in the same order you selected them is another matter. His wife just loves it in the kitchen (You think I'm joking don't you?)

[dave walsh]

Don't get too carried away folks with auto changers and buying double copies of LP's. It might just become trendy. As it happens so many times, I understood Edwards original post to be not just about a lack of knowledge but perhaps the attitude he encounters towards gaining it. It's OK not to know things but not to lack any real interest. "Love Island" was featured on the Sunday Politics today re a bemused young man trying to explain to others what the EU and Brexit is all about. The response he got was "Does that mean there won't be any trees

Dave

[Station X]

Let's leave the EU and Brexit out of this please.

[dave walsh]

Sorry Graham-misjudgement. I really had no interest in introducing political issues [banned I know]. That would be the last thing to add but I just wanted to say that Edward's original concern seemed genuine and not prejudiced at all.

Dave

[Grubhead]

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

I don't recall that ever happening here. The mods generally don't allow confrontational posting, although occasionally something slips through as we can't read every single post. We will intervene if you report it.

I'm afraid that was my initial reading of this thread. I might have gone over the top with the wording as nobody was picking on any person in particular. But it was coming across as the "experts" were sighting the "young" as being like those in shops of the past.
I suppose there has always been an element of condescension where "Hi-Fi" was concerned, which was not just rated to the fact that hi-fi was often and still is overpriced. You might recall that the Not The Nine O'Clock News did a sketch of a chap going into a record shop asking for a "record player" and being greeted by a know-it-all assistant. "Don't you mean Turntable?"