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Old 12th Jul 2005, 10:27 pm   #1
Sideband
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Default Warning labels.

I need a little guidance on warning lables. Some of us repair sets for other people and I recently have repaired a DAC90A and an imported Philips. With AC/DC sets obviously you cannot earth the chassis so all you can do is ensure that no exposed metalwork is going to become live and the set is correctly re-assembled with all screws fitted and not accessable by the user. AC only sets can be earthed so the problem is not so great. It's obvious that no vintage set can ever meet modern safety regulations and in the case of a repair for someone else, it is essential to fit a warning lable and explain about the safety aspect.

Can anyone suggest suitable wording to apply to a lable? It doesn't make the set conform to latest regs even though it may be perfectly safe to use. It's also up to the customer whether they use the set or not and short of returning the set to the custmer without a mains lead saying 'well it's fully restored but don't use it because it doesn't comply with latest regulations', there is nothing you can do to make the set safer.

At the same time I need to feel that I've covered myself regarding safety warnings.

Any suggestions?


Thanks guys.


Rich.
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Old 12th Jul 2005, 11:03 pm   #2
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Default Re: Warning lables

Richard, I think there are some examples in Andy Emmerson's book, but I haven't got my copy to hand at the moment. Can anyone else dig out their's?

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Old 12th Jul 2005, 11:09 pm   #3
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Default Re: Warning labels.

I can see no reason why an AC only set should not pass a portable appliance test (PAT). To "cover" yourself have the test carried out by an electrical contractor who will stick the PASS or FAIL label to the set as appropriate. I would advise isolating any exposed voltage selectors and permanently wiring the set for say 230V AC.

For AC/DC sets fitted with a detachable mains lead this needs to be polarised or marked so that the chassis is at neutral potential. Alternatively remove the detachable lead and permanently wire it, making sure that the pins are not exposed.

As for a label how about:-

"This apppliance will not pass a portable appliance test by virtue of its age and design.

For your own safety and that of others.

1. Do not fit a three core mains lead to the appliance.

2. Do not earth the appliance.

3. Observe correct polarity when plugging the mains lead into the appliance.

3. Do not touch metal parts of the appliance when it is connected to the mains supply."

No point in including a disclaimer, as they do't count in legal proceedings.

These are mere suggestions which others may be able to improve upon.

Graham.
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Old 13th Jul 2005, 12:37 am   #4
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Default Re: Warning lables

Graham has mentioned the detachable mains lead on this model. As we know, the female plug can be partially withdrawn to expose the pins - which will remain live until the lead is totally disconnected. This in itself will (nowadays) be illegal and we cannot assume people will have the sense to disconnect the lead from the mains before removing the female from the rear of the radio.

As Graham said, the only way round this would be to permanently wire in a new mains lead and isolate/remove the male pins.

Another problem is the rear panel and its vent slats. You could seal the heads of the fixing screws but the problem of the vents remains as HSE paranoia suggests someone, perhaps a child, may poke something through the vent slats and thus electrocute themselves. As these vents are necessary on a valve receiver, I cannot see what could be done to eliminate this problem, apart from fitting some sort of fine mesh to the inside of the rear panel.

Short of heavily modifying this ( or any other mains - valve radio ) and thus destroying much of its originality, how I see it these radios never will comply fully with modern regulations and therefore the risk of prosecution, at least in theory, will remain regardless of any warning label.

However, there are two points which, to me, are grey areas :

1. If you sell an appliance which fails to conform with modern safety requirements you run the risk of being 'done' for it ....... but does this still apply if you don't sell a radio but instead repair it for someone as a FOC favour ? So far as I recall, the only laws I've come across regarding this sort of thing refer to selling non safety conforming electrical appliances.

2. We see constant references to removing the mains lead and selling radios (etc) for 'display purposes only'.

In the light of point 2 above, I would therefore be inclined to sell ( or return a repaired radio to its owner ) with no mains plug fitted and a label stating that the appliance is sold/handed back in working order but for 'display only to comply with modern legal requirements'. It may also be fair to include, with the radio, a seperate sheet outlining the possible hazards which deem the appliance to be unconforming to modern regulations. This way I would think the vendor or repairer would be covering his own back, but I don't know for certain.

Despite what I've said herein, I suppose I leave myself open to the possible risk of prosecution as I sometimes dispose of radios via Ebay and other outlets with no safety warning or 'display only' clause. I also frequently buy old radios from various sources ( boots, markets, junk shops etc ) which still have a mains lead - often in dangerous condition - and plug attached. It thus seems little is done about by the HSE, Trading Standards etc., to ensure trading laws are adhered to. I guess it's like a host of other things; they wait until someone gets killed or injured and then swing into action.

Sorry to waffle, goodnight all
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Old 13th Jul 2005, 12:58 pm   #5
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Default Re: Warning lables

It may be worth noting that to pass an appliance test requires more than a PAT tester saying "OK" on its little screen. On that basis an old ac/dc set would pass - but of course they fail to meet the "double insulated" specification.

It does seem that most of the regulations are either about selling stuff, or actually working on it. By the way, you are allowed to sell a dangerous thing to someone who intends to fix it.

Isn't it classic that the effect of all this regulation is to mean that the only safe thing to do is to declare something unusable. By explaining the dangers, so as to imply using it, you are probably de-facto in the wrong, so better to not mention anything about possibly using it.
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Old 13th Jul 2005, 1:33 pm   #6
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Default Re: Warning lables

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB
Isn't it classic that the effect of all this regulation is to mean that the only safe thing to do is to declare something unusable. By explaining the dangers, so as to imply using it, you are probably de-facto in the wrong, so better to not mention anything about possibly using it.
It's like a paradox! Maybe the answer is not to say anything at all!
So no lable declaring anything?

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Last edited by Sideband; 13th Jul 2005 at 1:39 pm.
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Old 13th Jul 2005, 2:06 pm   #7
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Default Re: Warning lables

Quote:
So no lable declaring anything?
You are getting the idea.
Best to do all the work in one of those cover-all suits and surgical gloves that SOCOs use - so as not to leave any DNA evidence.
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Old 13th Jul 2005, 8:00 pm   #8
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Default Re: Warning lables

If you repair, alter, sell or loan an appliance of any sort that can be proved to have injured a third party you are liable! No stickers, written or spoken words will count for anything if a problem arose. When I was in business I refused to service old appliances other than for known sensible customers who FULLY understood the electrical implications of old equipment and even then I had an insurance policy to cover any disasters that might occur when servicing the publics radio and television recivers. If you alter the set from original specification in any way you will leave yourself open to prosecution should an accident occur. Most AC/DC sets have easily accessible live parts either through the cabinet back, knob screws, chassis securing screws, aerial, pick-up, extension speaker and any other sockets. The public have lost their fears of electric shock and don't expect to have to 'take care' with a simple product like a radio that may well be used in a kitchen where earthed and damp surfaces are common.
Sorry to be a 'dampener' on our interests but its worth thinking about. JOHN.

Last edited by Heatercathodeshort; 13th Jul 2005 at 8:05 pm.
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Old 13th Jul 2005, 8:35 pm   #9
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Default Re: Warning lables

Hi all


For what its worth, here is my contribution.

As I understand it, if you are doing a repair, you can fix the set, make it as safe as is reasonable possible, and stick a "Fail" sticker on it for the PAT test.

Give the customer their bill, on which you have stated it failed the test, and why.

What the customer then does is their choice, and if they chooses to ignore this and use the set, that’s there problem.

You have done your part, and informed them.

As far as the PAT test is concerned, if its an AC set with a double wound transformer, and earthed chassis (I know, there are not many), and the cover etc is intact, it can pass. The fact that it is old should not be held against it.

If it has not got a earthed chassis, then, its going to fail.

It will not be marked as double insulated, so must be classed as an earthed appliance.

If you make it safer, by modifying it, and fitting a 3 core lead and earthing the chassis, then it may pass the PAT test, but you have opened a huge can of worms by modifying it.

As for selling these sets, if you are a private individual I don’t think there is a problem, but if you are selling as part of a business, I don’t think there is a way of selling them as working.

For a start, they are not CE marked so can not be sold.

Richard. (Who has had bad day, full of rules and regs, and, to top it all off sorting out bad payers with a spot of Debt collecting!)
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Old 13th Jul 2005, 8:43 pm   #10
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Default Re: Warning lables

Quote:
and even then I had an insurance policy to cover any disasters that might occur when servicing the publics radio and television recivers. If you alter the set from original specification in any way you will leave yourself open to prosecution should an accident occur.
Yes, please do take out insurance if you plan to referb and sell any electrical equipment. I used to repair industrial SMPS as a freelancer (part time), so felt the need to do this after investigation of the issues.

WRT no original components, it is sometimes impossible to repair old equipment in a timely and economic manner without subbing and altering something or other – additionally, a lot of equipment has already been altered from its original state by the time it lands on the workbench. It is very difficult to prove or disprove that you did / didn't alter equipment in these circumstances.

Sad to say, I would advice people to think long and hard before setting up a service to deal with "Joe Public". The hassle and risk will almost certainly out weigh any pecuniary gain. Sad and stupid times we live in
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Old 14th Jul 2005, 12:54 pm   #11
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Default Re: Warning lables

Quote:
Originally Posted by evingar

Sad to say, I would advice people to think long and hard before setting up a service to deal with "Joe Public". The hassle and risk will almost certainly out weigh any pecuniary gain. Sad and stupid times we live in
So I wonder how the companies that professionally repair and restore vintage radio's for resale safeguard themselves?


Maybe I should ask some of them the question assuming they will answer it .

Panrock (radiocraft) where are you!!


Rich.
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Last edited by Sideband; 14th Jul 2005 at 1:08 pm.
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Old 14th Jul 2005, 1:27 pm   #12
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Default Re: Warning lables

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Newman
Panrock (radiocraft) where are you!!


Rich.
I think I've just answered my own question!! Just been reading this lively debate from a short while ago:

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ead.php?t=3578

I don't think there is really any point in going further with this thread so now I will go away and think about what to do to 'cover my back' if indeed that is possible.

Thanks for all your ideas.


Rich
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