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Components and Circuits For discussions about component types, alternatives and availability, circuit configurations and modifications etc. Discussions here should be of a general nature and not about specific sets.

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Old 19th Dec 2018, 1:02 am   #21
MrBungle
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Default Re: Silly screws

I have yet to find a screw I can’t undo. From pentalobe to torx security to tricone to knackered by a wally, all fall before me.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 1:04 am   #22
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Arrow Re: Silly screws

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Compaq always used Torx heads in their computers - utterly pointless PITA.
Yes, agreed. But Compaq have always been very insistent on building their entire PCs to a style that is unique to Compaq. One example is their screw-less fixing arrangements for hard disk drives: clumsy & quite unnecessary.

As for their insistence on Torx headed screws, of the three HP / Compaq PCs in use here, many of those Torx screws were replaced with conventional cross-head screws when those PCs arrived and were subsequently inspected and customized to meet my requirements.
In cases like that, my motto has always been "Do whatever is necessary to make the job easier next time". There always seems to be a 'next time'.

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Old 19th Dec 2018, 6:01 am   #23
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Default Re: Silly screws

I don't know why people dislike Torx head screws, I much prefer them to Phillips/Pozidriv. In fact when I put up shelves here I used Torx head woodscrews (available from Screwfix) and found them much easier to tighten than the Pozidriv type.

Some IBM machines (5155 'Portable PC'), Friden Flexowriters, etc have Bristol Spline head screws in them. They look a bit like Torx, but aren't. I even came across one as the grubscrew in a multi-turn potentiometer dial in a piece of (British) test gear. The tools for those are less common than, say, Torx but they are available.

Another one that is increasingly common in consumer devices is a screw with a triangular recess in the head (the screwdriver has a triangular tip). Often the cover on, say, a kitchen appliance is retained by mostly Pozidriv screws and 1 or 2 of those. The drivers for them are a lot harder to obtain than they should be.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 8:10 am   #24
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Default Re: Silly screws

An early tamper-proof screw: the tapered head on the (4BA?) screws that hold the case onto a WS-88. Keep those squaddies out!
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 8:59 am   #25
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Default Re: Silly screws

Just a point on the HP/Compaq screws (which they still use today). They chose them because they’re the hardest screws to shred in the hands of a typical IT tech. I don’t blame them there. You don’t want to have to drill a screw out to play inside a down server. I have a nice little Wera kit (RS part 8757956) which lives in my bag for daily use on site.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 9:35 am   #26
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Default Re: Silly screws

I vaguely remember getting a toy piano for christmas, probably about age 6. My dad didnt have a phillips screwdriver, so off to "Uncle Alfs" down the road to borrow one, and it was then possible to take the piano to pieces to see how it worked. I also vaguely remember being a lot better at taking things apart to see how they worked than putting them back together again in the correct order
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 9:59 am   #27
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Default Re: Silly screws

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Originally Posted by Herald1360 View Post
Qik'n'dirty antitamper screw- tighten up a Phillips or pozidriv screw then attack the head with a suitable drill bit......
I often come across such screws where the inept use of a screwdriver has inadvertently had a similar effect.

Yes, and like Steve above, I learn't how to take things apart some years before I started to develop the skills to reassemble them.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 10:16 am   #28
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Default Re: Silly screws

I think it's unfair to label a screw "anti-tamper" just because you don't have the right screwdriver for it. Personally I always use Torx screws if I can. There is never any problem with the driver slipping out of the screw and damaging the screw and itself like there is with slotted screws or posidriv. If you were to look up the relevant patents you'd most likely find that every design of screw has some advantage or other.

The simplest anti-tamper screw I have seen is a slotted head with the clockwise side of the slot flat and the anticlockwise side formed like a small ramp. Trying to undo the screw just makes the screwdriver slide out of the slot.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 11:18 am   #29
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Default Re: Silly screws

Top brand SLR cameras had their own style of "Indicator" (aka: "Someone's Been At It -or Secret" screws). All 1970 SLRs used conventional clock-wise tightening screws but one of the screws tightened anti-clockwise !

From time to time the top of the range SLRs (professional & very expensive ones) were subject to changes to this practice but notification was via a face to face meeting at the company's head office only and any documents had to kept under lock & key at the chosen repairers.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 11:29 am   #30
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Default Re: Silly screws

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyDuell View Post
I don't know why people dislike Torx head screws, I much prefer them to Phillips/Pozidriv. In fact when I put up shelves here I used Torx head woodscrews (available from Screwfix) and found them much easier to tighten than the Pozidriv type.
Well said. I'm a little disappointed that older driving profiles have persisted as long as they have, though I suppose most fields of human activity suffer from resistance to change, even when the change is a genuine improvement, and the "well, this is how we've always done things here, who are you?" syndrome. I was quite pleased to see Torx finally appear on woodscrews, I think the exposed heads actually jar less than Philips/Posidriv on antique items apart from the functional improvement. The ability to impart plenty of torque without camming-out (Ph/Po) or slivering (slotted head) is a definite plus-point, and presumably gave the inspiration for the brand.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 12:17 pm   #31
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Default Re: Silly screws

Ditto. In my opinion slotted head screws are the worst type of fastener ever invented. The only advantage as far as I can see is that they were easy to manufacture as were the drivers for them. Philips and Posi-Drive screws are little better. I prefer a Torx or internal hex drive (Allen Screw) head any day.

Anti-tamper screws are a totally different matter.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 12:28 pm   #32
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Default Re: Silly screws

On top of the silly screw heads, I wonder if some manufacturers make the screws out of the shite-est of matierials to ensure they strip and need replacement after just 1 removal.

I had some torx (or hex, cant remember which) screws on the cover of my Cambridge azur 340 that stripped, even using the correct bit. After the first one crumbled I took a dremel out and cut a flat slot into each one, not caring about the damage to the lid surrounding each one. Served the amp right

The plastic clip/spacer things on the board were also clearly not designed for ease of removal or refitting. I lost patience here also and cut most of them off with little care and threw them in the bin. Leaving a few selectively placed to stop the board sagging. Managed to replace the speaker relays after that and went back together ok. Next time it will be a damn sight easier to open!!
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 12:45 pm   #33
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Default Re: Silly screws

My favourite production-fast anti-tamper fastener is the mushroom-headed helically-splined-rivet, sometimes called a "Drive screw".

https://www.bapp.co.uk/hammer-drive-screws.html

Not seen much this side of the Atlantic, but widely used in US gear from the 40s through the 60s.

Quick and easy to install in a production environment [using a press] - they grip well into steel and alloy, and tolerably-well into hard plastic too. With a non-slotted mushroom-head they are really difficult to remove - there's no easy way to grip the head in a way which allows it to be simultaneously rotated _and_ pulled.

I specified stainless-steel versions of these, fitting into 'blind' holes, on some agricultural gear I designed a while back. With no socket in the head they were much easier to decontaminate after use than conventional slotted/Philips/Pozidriv/Torx/Allen-type screws.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 12:51 pm   #34
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Default Re: Silly screws

Yes, re Torx screws i can remember moaning to the Philips technical liaison guy that used to visit the workshop once a month about the Torx screws and having to buy new drivers and he said the Torx screws were a manufacturing thing as the drop rate was was less compared to everyone else using Philips or Pozi drive screws.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 12:58 pm   #35
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Default Re: Silly screws

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Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
With a non-slotted mushroom-head they are really difficult to remove - there's no easy way to grip the head in a way which allows it to be simultaneously rotated _and_ pulled.
Not just tamper proof then, Engineer proof too!
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 1:09 pm   #36
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Not just tamper proof then, Engineer proof too!
That was the idea! Easy to jet-wash after each use, and intended to last only as long as the foot and mouth outbreak continued.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 1:22 pm   #37
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 2:30 pm   #38
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Originally Posted by TonyDuell View Post
Some IBM machines (5155 'Portable PC'), Friden Flexowriters, etc have Bristol Spline head screws in them. They look a bit like Torx, but aren't. I even came across one as the grubscrew in a multi-turn potentiometer dial in a piece of (British) test gear. The tools for those are less common than, say, Torx but they are available.
The control-knobs in US-made WWII military radios such as the TCS series used what I believe were Bristol fasteners - they look like a cross between an Allen socket-head and a Torx. Fortunately my TCS-12 has a pair of the necessary wrenches conveniently clipped inside!
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 11:31 am   #39
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Default Re: Silly screws

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
My favourite production-fast anti-tamper fastener is the mushroom-headed helically-splined-rivet, sometimes called a "Drive screw".

https://www.bapp.co.uk/hammer-drive-screws.html

Not seen much this side of the Atlantic, but widely used in US gear from the 40s through the 60s.
Re #33. Last time I saw them used were to hold the rubber feet onto the base plate cover Kenwood "Chef" kitchen appliances.

Ahh, Bapps bolts are just down the road from where I live and they have a wide variety of head, threads and materials. They even had a left handed M7 30mm torx off the shelf.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 2:26 pm   #40
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Default Re: Silly screws

We used drive screws back in the 1950’s to hold production labels onto paxolin boards used for electrical controllers.
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