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Old 27th Apr 2019, 7:41 pm   #1
giraffenigel
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Default When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Does anyone know the rough date the GPO No 12 dial was introduced and if it replaced the No 10 on all models or was there a long crossover period?
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 10:34 pm   #2
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced

Atkinson's 'Telephony, Vol: 1' refers to a 'new type of dial in which the slipping cam has been eliminated' and refers to it as the trigger dial. There is no mention of it being 'Dial, No:12' but there is a photograph and it has the number 12 stamped on it.

This book was first published in 1948.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 10:53 pm   #3
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced

Fairly sure that the No 12 trigger dial was indeed introduced in the 1940s. Out of interest the manufacturing date of a particular dial is printed or stamped on the back near to the rim.

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Old 28th Apr 2019, 9:20 am   #4
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

The trigger dial photo in 'Atkinson' has 12 C44/1 stamped on it. 1944 manufacture?

'The Telephone Handbook' by Herbert and Proctor was written in 1944 and it only mentions slipping cam dials; doesn't even mention the number 10. So given the inertia of publishing, I would guess 1944 to 1948 as the dates for development and rolling-out.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 9:33 am   #5
giraffenigel
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Thanks, that is earlier than I thought. So, would a 200/300 series telephone made in the early 1950s have had a dial No 12 fitted as a matter of course or were they still making/fitting No 10 dials then?
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 9:57 am   #6
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

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Originally Posted by giraffenigel View Post
'So, would a 200/300 series telephone made in the early 1950s have had a dial No 12 fitted as a matter of course or were they still making/fitting No 10 dials then?'
I don't know. But telephone parts were manufactured to be interchangable for economy reasons and if there were vast stocks of 'new-old stock' No:10 dials kicking around, wouldn't be surprised if they were fitted with those until the stocks were used up.

As an aside, I once purchased a 'new-old stock' Bell-type receiver, the type used on candlestick telephones, still in its original plastic bag with Government phaeon arrow and bag of desiccant in 1981 at a Leeds radio rally. It looked like these receivers were still being manufactured at a time when polythene was used for packing - 1940s/1950s? So there's a bit of inertia with manufacturing. I don't think the manufacturers would suddenly stop producing No:10 dials and start producing No:12 dials with vast stocks of No:10 dials still in existence, especially immediately post-war and when the country was getting back on its feet again.

Are you a member of the THG (Telecommunications Heritage Group)? There's a vast pool of knowledge on there you can tap into and I'm sure someone would hve the answer you are looking for.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 10:04 am   #7
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Thanks Russell, yes I am a member of the THG and will ask there as well but you've all been a great help already.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 10:16 am   #8
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

I've just had a look on the THG forum where I saw the request for info. That'll be yourself, then!
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 10:18 am   #9
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Yes, I took your advice!
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 11:01 am   #10
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Difficult to be precise about phasing I think as there were a number of different suppliers of phones to the GPO and the availability of raw materials for tooling and manufacture would have been an issue at the time. However, it's probably safe to assume that new installations would have had the new dial by the early fifties. It's also worth remembering that a new (or refurbished) dial would have been retro-fitted to older phones if a dial failed in use. It's relatively unusual to come across a phone from this era where all the parts have corresponding date stamps.

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Old 28th Apr 2019, 11:32 am   #11
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

The 'N' diagram for both trigger dials - the 'Dial Auto No 12' and the 'Dial Auto No 13' (coinbox version) - are both dated 11th May 1944 .

However the 'Vocabulary of Engineering Stores' Section 14 (which includes the list of dials in use) dated 1st of June 1944 doesn't list the No 12 or 13.

The N diagram for the Tele 332 was still showing it as being fitted with a Dial No 10 until the issue dated April 1974 which shows it being fitted with a Dial No 21.

The Bakelite 3XX wall series (introduced c.1950) seem to have had No 12 dials fitted from introduction as does the Tele 312 (introduced late 1949) and the later Tele 314.

However over the years as the Bakelite telephones went through local 'wipe-up' depots or back through PO Factories the No 10 dials would likely have been swapped for No 12's.

Looking at the adverts in the IPOEE Journals from 1944 onwards would be likely to show when the trigger dial was fitted to the Bakelite telephones.

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Old 28th Apr 2019, 11:50 am   #12
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by giraffenigel View Post
'So, would a 200/300 series telephone made in the early 1950s have had a dial No 12 fitted as a matter of course or were they still making/fitting No 10 dials then?'
I don't know. But telephone parts were manufactured to be interchangable for economy reasons and if there were vast stocks of 'new-old stock' No:10 dials kicking around, wouldn't be surprised if they were fitted with those until the stocks were used up.

As an aside, I once purchased a 'new-old stock' Bell-type receiver, the type used on candlestick telephones, still in its original plastic bag with Government phaeon arrow and bag of desiccant in 1981 at a Leeds radio rally. It looked like these receivers were still being manufactured at a time when polythene was used for packing - 1940s/1950s? So there's a bit of inertia with manufacturing. I don't think the manufacturers would suddenly stop producing No:10 dials and start producing No:12 dials with vast stocks of No:10 dials still in existence, especially immediately post-war and when the country was getting back on its feet again.

Are you a member of the THG (Telecommunications Heritage Group)? There's a vast pool of knowledge on there you can tap into and I'm sure someone would hve the answer you are looking for.
There were a lot of ex-GPO items - Tele 150's, Tele 332's and component parts - for sale in the early 1960's all well packaged in 'poly bags' with desiccants - but they were ones which had come from Army sources having been repackaged over the years by the Army. It was only the part numbers on the packaging which identified them as Military rather than GPO but the markings on the items were all GPO. In those days I wore two hats - GPO and Royal Signals - so knew the difference.

I remember buying 'as new' Tele 150's and Tele 332's for the horrendous price of ten shillings each in 1961/62! A lot when your wage was 4.19s.6d in 1961! ]

I remember going with the guy who owned the ex-Govt surplus store in Chester to a sale at the Government Storage Depot at Wem in Shropshire. Ended up with a Tele 59 and a couple of Tele 11's - again at 10 shillings each in a lot that he bought. They had been recovered from the Army ranges at Shoeburyness. Those were the days!

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Old 28th Apr 2019, 1:51 pm   #13
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Very interesting - thanks Ian, you should write a book!
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 3:13 pm   #14
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

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Very interesting - thanks Ian, you should write a book!
It's knowing what to limit it to.

I've been gathering telephone info since the late 1950's - hence a huge collection (80 to 90 volumes) of N diagrams and their forerunners back to 1886, plus L, Q, TG, T and other sets. Hundred plus volumes of EI's and TI's (both the original set from pre-the days of EI's and the later Post Offices ones from 1968 onwards which replaced the EI's. Plus a complete set of the 'List of Exchanges' about details of each GPO/PO/BT exchange from mid 1920's until it went 'on-line' on BT's Intranet in the mid 1980's. That doesn't include piles of diagrams for public exchanges ranging from magneto ones pre-WW1 through to electronic ones of the 1980's.

Even got an original telephone directory for Caernarfon dated 1897! Used to know an operator from the GPO manual exchange in Caernarfon - above the Sign Shop at 24 Bangor Street in Caernarfon before it went auto. I still need to get the original Capel Curig UAX12 exchange going that was in the front half of this building before it was extended and replaced with a UAX13 when STD came along.

Even managed to interview someone who used to work the magneto manual exchange in the front room of107 Brunswick Road, Buckley in Flintshire during the days of the National Telephone Company - when it was in a private house! Note the large 'manhole' in the pavement outside and 'Distribution Pole No 1' as well. Sadly the old guy, then in his mid 90's died three days later.

Also remember working on Rossett exchange when it was in the front bedroom of No 3 Sunny Villas - a row of terraced cottages before it went auto. Worked on installing new Strowger exchange and then went back some years later and commissioned the TXE2 electronic exchange which replaced it. Then went on to be a senior commissioning engineer on the first large electronic exchange - the TXE4 at Birmingham 'Rectory'.

So it is difficult knowing where to start and what to cover? Must away, got some lines to set up on CNet and an A/B box to test for a museum in Manchester that will be getting connected to CNet on its original 'Manchester' number. A bit off original topic but all good fun!

Ian
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 7:54 pm   #15
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

Ian, there's a later "Pay on Answer" coin box in the booking hall of Bury Bolton Street railway station (East Lancashire Railway Preservation Society), No idea what it's connected to, but perhaps a future CNet subscriber?

Incidentally, the Bury Radio Society can be found on Platform One.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 8:12 pm   #16
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

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'...ones which had come from Army sources having been repackaged over the years by the Army. It was only the part numbers on the packaging which identified them as Military rather than GPO...'
I wondered that. I've had ex-Air Ministry capacitors and other components from RAF 14MU auctions that were wrapped similarly. Back in '74 I bought two brand-new-and-boxed dial-less 232 instruments from A. W. Young, a (then) London photographic store. They were ex-A.M. but I only knew because the advert said they were.

I wish I still had them!
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 10:28 pm   #17
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

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Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
Ian, there's a later "Pay on Answer" coin box in the booking hall of Bury Bolton Street railway station (East Lancashire Railway Preservation Society), No idea what it's connected to, but perhaps a future CNet subscriber?

Incidentally, the Bury Radio Society can be found on Platform One.
I'll have a look next time I'm there. I know the phone system at the ELR have been to advise them about it. I also run a similar network to CNet that links a number of preserved railways - the MR ETD - Minor Railways Extension Trunk Dialling - system based on the public railways Extension Trunk Dialling system codes of thirty forty plus years ago. And it has links to the modern day ETD system available to some numbers.

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Old 1st May 2019, 1:24 pm   #18
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Default Re: When was the No 12 dial introduced?

I was in that box last weekend, to find out how the double-folding door worked. (I'm re-creating one at home).
I never thought to take a look at the 'phone!
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