The BVWS Parts department

[Sean Williams]

Following on from the lcr capacitor thread, i thought I would start a seperate debate for the BVWS parts dept

I am happy to volunteer to manage this sort of project, and would envisage this sort of situation:

BVWS holds small stocks of harder to get components - HV capacitors, Bigger resistors, and who knows some NOS components

These are offered to members to assist in restoration work , and could be done on a kit basis, either for each radio, or in bulk, sold on at cost, plus a small margin, to help expand stocks as the project takes off.

I am not proposing that the BVWS gets involved with remanufacture - merely acts as a supplier to its members of the sort of stuff that is not available on the high street....

What say you all?

Cheers
Sean

[Danny]

Hi yes this would be good but what a job and i think the expence would be too too much the storage alone would be a problem then getting things at the right price!. it would work if everyone supported it then the price of components would be cheaper .it would also be nice if some specialist parts could be reproduced Ie uni fit masks for tvs and dial glasses for radios spring to mind these items like many others could be reproduced if there were enough takers . also where will the monies come from to start
the project?. Danny

[tvden]

lots of car clubs seem to have this sort of scheme for members I dont see why it could not be applied to radio and tv parts, if kept to a few basic selected items

[mervyn]

think its a good idea,, i for one would use it.

[Duke_Nukem]

As regards a parts store, not sure this is a a really good idea.

For starters what about the dealers at BVWS events (many of whome I'm sure also deal via post/internet) ? Basic parts are already available from these dealers (and obscure stuff too). And how many people have already obtained parts via the Wireless Museum ?

Yes vintage car clubs do stock parts for memberes - but remember these are make-specific car clubs with far fewer "models" (compare the number of basic models produced by a large car maker such as Ford in the UK with the number of radios, tv's and grams manufactured by Bush in a shorter period!).

Originally Posted by Danny

it would also be nice if some specialist parts could be reproduced Ie uni fit masks for tvs...

The subject of remanufacture of parts has been raised at a committee meeting and is noted in the minutes published at the back of the BVWS magazine (there is a typo ... JE (me!) did not mention some horn speaker parts (in fact I don't even know what the metioned part is) but specifically raised the subject of TV masks). However after some discussion it was felt that this was not an area into which the society wished to enter.

There would certainly be no point in the BVWS remanufactureing certain parts such as dial glasses, for the simple reason that there is at least one person already re-manufacturing good quality scales (Ben Dijkman).

TTFN,
Jon

[Sean Williams]

Hmm, Let me reiterate the idea....

It is NOT to attempt remanufacture of items - too expensive, and too wide ranging.

My idea only revolves around components at present, and only the ones that are not as easy to get as they used to be - HV decoupling caps are going to end up extinct if we just rely on the likes of RS or Farnell to keep stocks - far better for the national society to take a stand and provide a useful service to it's members.

If anyone really wants to contemplate remanufacture of TV masks, then I suggest that they look into the tooling cost for rubber moldling plant, and then check out the minimum order level........it will never happen!

So, back to the original proposal then......

As for dealers at BVWS events..... Fine if you happen to want the items available when an event is running, but what about the other 40 weeks of the year? - Added to this that the idea is not meant to be a true commercial enterprise - dealers have overheads to worry about - this idea revolves around providing another service to the membership - otherwise I would have just started a small cottage industry here, and run the show as a profit making venture.....

Lets not look for reasons to reject the idea without a balance of positive suggestions.

Cheers
Sean

[Duke_Nukem]

Question : If you were a dealer then would you bother attending a BVWS event to which only BVWS members turn up and the same members can buy cheaper from the BVWS ? OK, not every dealer would be affected but it would be bound to have a negative effect on events.

Originally Posted by m1ecy

HV decoupling caps are going to end up extinct if we just rely on the likes of RS or Farnell to keep stocks - far better for the national society to take a stand and provide a useful service to it's members.

True. But they *are* still available so perhaps it is better to make sure people are aware that they 'eint going to be around for long and buy themselves some stocks ?

Originally Posted by m1ecy

As for dealers at BVWS events..... Fine if you happen to want the items available when an event is running, but what about the other 40 weeks of the year?

Originally Posted by micey

Lets not look for reasons to reject the idea without a balance of positive suggestions.

Agreed ... but I'm just expressing my own thoughts and unfortunately I struggle to get many positives. Obviously parts at a reduced cost would be a great positive but I can't think of any others.

Negatives as I see it are many.

Some maths : There are 1600 members. Taking the example of HT electrolytics, how many should the BVWS buy ? 10 per member ? 1 per member ? No idea. But if one per member times lets say cost the BVWS £2 per pop thats £3200 potentially tied up in electrolytics. To say nothing of other parts that'd it'd be useful to stock. That kind of money pays for things like Christmas DVDs or putting on extra events (such as the recent TV one at the NVCF).

It might also cause some difficulties as the society would start to be seen (by the powers that be) as a commercial enterprise which might well introduce all sorts of tax related hassle (this isn't my area of expertise so dont know for sure).

Then theres the downdsides if the BVWS were helpful - it'd only take one or two to buy a "big" qty from teh BVWS to flog on Ebay and there'd be none left for the rest - the BVWS would in effect be funding the profits of these Ebayers. Of course you could restrict the quantities but to what level ?

Sorry for being so negative, but nice at it'd be I honestly don't see it working in practice.

TTFN,
Jon

[Sean Williams]

Hi Jon,

Yep, some of your points are indeed valid, so Harpenden beckons - I will try to purchase a complete set of waxy replacements for the TV22 from there, and see how many dealers gain from my looking (I will only be looking for new components, not old stock ones).

Yep, sure buy a large stock from the likes of RS or Farnell - great, oh, one downfall, the cost is phenomenal, and this idea completely negates the reason I proposed it - Not all of us have access to these suppliers, and not all of us really want to have to pay huge sums out for postage, or min order quantities.

I wouldnt have proposed the idea of starting a parts dept based on the BVWS catering for each member - I think you may be going to extremes, and missing the point. Some members will be quite happy to continue doing things their way, for them this is fine, but what about the more casual restorer?, or the younger generation, or indeed generations to come - if we make provision now this will prevent a problem in the future.....

The society as it stands shows a healthy profit from some activities - in fact the NVCF could be seen by the inland revenue as a trading company, but thanks to our good old systems here in Blighty, a society can be not for profit, and still make money, so long as the profits are reinvested in the society - This proposal would just be another arm of this current situation.

As for the Ebay angle, I am sure that Swapmeets are meant for the benefit of members, and it is frowned upon to buy at a meet purely to profit from its existence - the products we would stock would be simple to track - we would be getting them manufactured to order, so anyone taking advantage of this system would soon be exposed....

As I say all valid points you make, and perhaps the society will not find this an attractive idea, but in ten years time will the same people be mourning the fact that components so desperately needed for restorations are only available from specialist dealers at massively inflated prices - lets look at Px25s and 300b triodes........

Cheers
Sean

[evingar]

Hi Folks

Some talk here about high voltage capacitors becoming obsolete - why should they ? Valve technology disappeared from the mainstream years ago and high voltage decouplers are still easy to get. Comparison to valves is not really fair. Valve technology is clearly obsolete outside of a few specialist areas. By contrast, high voltage capacitors have uses outside the realm of valve technology .

The likes of Maplin reduce the range, or stop selling such capacitors, because they have come to the conclusion that they would rather be in the "cheap consumer tat" market rather than the hobbyist electronics market - RS and Farnell though will continue to stock high voltage caps, wire wound resistors (etc) for the foreseeable future IMHO.

I have to agree with Jon, IMHO to be a useful service, such a wide range of components would have to be stocked that the time and effort required by the society stands every chance of compromising its core activities. It is a complete non-starter (IMHO) to stock just a few lines, for the simple reason, if you cannot get all you want from the BVWS, you will still have to make a up a minimum order from the likes of Farnell or RS - You may as well buy all the stuff from them in the first place !

[Nickthedentist]

Originally Posted by evingar

The likes of Maplin reduce the range, or stop selling such capacitors, because they have come to the conclusion that they would rather be in the "cheap consumer tat" market rather than the hobbyist electronics market - RS and Farnell though will continue to stock high voltage caps, wire wound resistors (etc) for the foreseeable future IMHO.

I hope you're right, Chris, but CPC's massive cull of LCRs this year has got me slightly worried

[evingar]

I hope you're right, Chris, but CPC's massive cull of LCRs this year has got me slightly worried

Hi Nick

CPC seem to be going the same are going the same way as Maplin, I agree. I don't think this is that significant though, they are simply differentiating their 2 businesses. Why stock duplicate lines in Farnell and CPC ?

[Sean Williams]

Ok, a comment here - LCR stopped supplying Farnell - reason - they (Farnell) were consolidating stock lines (well LCRs story) hence LCR do not stock the caps we use!

Proof positive.......

Back to the discussion of the moment - there is no real need for a huge stock profile - start small, then expand if the project seems to work - if not, cancel the idea, sell off remaining stock, job done - Simple!

It is looking more and more like a private venture.......:-(


# 15 of 0.001 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.002 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.0022 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.003 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.0047 MFD at 630V
# 15 of 0.005 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.006 MFD 630V
# 5 of 0.007 MFD 630V
# 45 of 0.01 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.015 MFD at 630V
# 25 of 0.02 MFD at 630V
# 10 of 0.03 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.04 MFD at 630V
# 25 of 0.05 MFD at 630V
# 5 of 0.06 MFD at 630V
# 20 of 0.1 MFD at 630V
# 20 of 0.22 MFD at 400V

Here is a readily available kit from Canada - lots of these values are not really relevant to UK spec sets, so the range could be slimmed further.....

[Sean Williams]

Well, following a root around at Harpenden, I report a failiure - I could not get a complete set of caps for a TV22.

I did purchase some I was looking for, and the price was not excessive, but there was only the one seller that held a stock of poly caps.

So, I do not think we would be causing too much upset by looking into this plan a little further.

I will contact Mike over the next couple of days and see if it can be raised at the next committee meeting - If it is rejected at committee level, then I will look into forming a co-operative group to bulk buy

Cheers
Sean

[jim_beacon]

Sean,

the Norwegian Historic Radio Society run a parts service along the lines you suggest, supplying caps, valves, and anything else they have. I'm not sure of the logistics of supply in Norway (commercial suppliers and the like), but to maintain a reasonable service to members (fewer than the BVWS), takes between three and five people for around 3 hours a week. The Norwegians also have the advantage of the remaining spares from the Tandberg factory, and they are often donated the stock of old style repairers when they retire.

If you want more information about the Norwegian system, I have a contact email address.

Jim.

[radioman]

I think a "BVWS Parts department" would be a great idea. Living in Scotland, I have to obtain all components via mail order and travelling hundreds of miles just to obtain a few capacitors is not an option for me.

Also there are no BVWS swapmeets up here and the dealers Jon mentions as attending these swapmeets I am not aware of, or know if they do mail-order. Do they advertise in 'The Bulletin' ?

Also, I was unaware that the Wireless Museum sold components. Does Gerry run a mail order business ?

I agree with everything that Sean has said and have noticed that the range of axial leaded components gets less every year. Look at whats happened to Maplin and the demise of Electrovalue.

A few years ago LCR still made HV electrolytics and you could get them from RS, but alas they were discontinued. I believe the same thing could easily happen with axial coupling capacitors, for example. Then they will only be available from specialists at inflated prices who had the foresight to stock up on large quantities now !

It also has to be realised that new components will only continue to be made whilst they are still used in newly manufactured goods.

So I think the BVWS should offer as a service to its members, certain basic restoration components like the axial polyester caps that LCR can make and ideally be branded 'BVWS' in a similar way to those components that RS used to sell. This would discourage the re-selling of these parts.

Alternatively or additionally, a 'parts store' could accept surplus components from those wishing to dispose of parts. I for one obtained a *large* quantity of 1/2 to 2W carbon film resistors which I will never use and would be willing to donate to the BVWS if they were collected

Andy

[Sean Williams]

Ok, a quick word with Head BURPER (Mike) earlier today leaves this idea shelved at the moment.

A lack of manpower, and considerations of traders at BVWS events, means that the supply of components will have to be left as things are at the moment

A sad situation, but there is little that can be done at present.

I invite interested parties to jion me in the other discussion in the components and circuits section

Cheers
Sean

[murphymad]

Hi All,

This is not a simple 'NO' more of a no we can't do it at the moment.

I will, over the next few weeks look into how we (BVWS) could obtain quantity supplies of regularly required Caps both Electrolytic and paper style (I know what would be needed so no problem there).

At what costs and min order quantities etc...

I will then take this info to the next Committee meeting.

I like the idea of having 'branded' caps (but must be discreet) and even being able to get them made in a dirty yellowy-brown colour while we are at it.

I'll let you know what happens as things develop or not!

Mike...

[tvden]

Mike very glad that the BVWS will at least be looking into this idea of Seans, as you all know I only collect tellies so I use an awfull ammout of caps and could do with being able to get them a bit cheaper also cheaper caps will prob result in more restorations, I like the idea of a dirty yellow colour

[PWH]

A slight twist to the original idea could be that several individuals could be 'approved' to supply one specialist item, Ben and his dial glasses is mentioned, I could do Braided cable, someone else HV caps and so forth spreading the load so to speak so there is a selection available to BVWS members at near cost, from a select group of people.

Or as I do, members could put their stock on line and all the BVWS members could have access to 'virtual stores' via links on the BVWS website, perhaps bartering with each other rather than using money. More fun in my opinion.

But as I found out, there is a risk, as very few people are willing to actually buy the stuff. I thought I would get rid of most of the cable I had made up as it just isn't available anywhere else, but apart from a few regulars very few people bought. Equally I thought by putting my stores online I would get regular trade, but hardly any enquiries and the stuff isn't expensive.

Not a problem to me, I am just making the point that others may end up holding large stocks of deteriorating components with few buyers. A shame, but probably realistic.

Another method could be for people to pay 'up front' for something special to be made up - like BVWS branded caps as suggested, at least that way all the stock would go. Not easy this one... End of my 2p worth

[tvden]

I think the idea of paying upfront is worth considering, the whole idea of geting new parts for radios and televisions is a minefield, and what about tv masks no one makes these