Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

vivax14 · 30th Apr 2019, 4:16 pm

Hi all,
My 14yr old daughter requested a record player for her room, so I decided to get my Defiant one out of the loft after its 30yr plus hibernation.
After replacing the stylus, the unit plays surprisingly well considering how long it's been in the loft. It only has a few issues:-
1: The turntable slows down when the pickup is going onto or off the record
2: The pickup arm only goes to the edge of the turntable when 45 is selected. so it thinks a 7" single is a 10" single. Albums work fine. I'm a bit confused how it knows what size record you want to play as my previous players have had a speed and size selection. This has just got speed.

I also wish to replace the capacitors in the power supply. If anyone has an idea where I can get a diagram I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance

Edward Huggins · 30th Apr 2019, 4:49 pm

Why do you need to replace the capacitors? If it's sounding OK, then no need to do this at all. As to the sluggish operation of the arm, it's most likely due to a lack of use and the old grease becoming hardened o the BSR UA25 autochanger. Do not use WD40 though, use Sewing Machine Oil and, where needed, Car Grease/Vaseline. As to the size selection - the small protruding finger on the pillar does this. Do ensure that the overarm is firmly pushed down onto the stack of records.

'LIVEWIRE?' · 30th Apr 2019, 5:00 pm

The turntable speed and the PU arm set-down problems are almost certainly caused by hardened grease, so clean and re-lube will be needed. See the 'sticky' threads (Reviving your Record Player') at the head of this section for details of how to service the autochanger. As for the electronics, I believe that someone over on GVR (Golbourne Vintage Radio) has, or had, some Defiant service manuals available. I'm also a member of GVT, so if I knew the model No. of that player, I could inquire on your behalf. That looks to be a fairly simple circuit, so should be easy to service. Basically capacitors, if they need replacing, should be changed for the nearest available value of the same or higher voltage rating, so, e.g., a 500uf Electrolytic should be replaced with a 470uf one.

Techman · 30th Apr 2019, 5:58 pm

That's a UA25 record deck and the record size is selected when the record 'flips' that lever on the tower as it drops. Small 7" records don't touch it as they drop, but by the looks of the one in your picture, the lever is stuck halfway down due to hardened grease, so the unit always thinks that a larger record has dropped. It's no good just lifting the lever back up as it'll feel slack and the only solution is a strip down, clean and re-lubricate.

Why do you want to replace power supply capacitors? If there's no hum on the sound and they're not bulging of getting warm, then leave them alone, as it's a transistorised amplifier and won't generally suffer the same capacitor type problems as a valve one.

vivax14 · 30th Apr 2019, 6:34 pm

Thanks for the info, guys. I was going to change the caps just in case they had dried out. There's no buzz or anything.
I'm guessing that it's a turntable out and strip down then for the record size issue is it?

BTW, it's model no is MP7

I have to admit that the lever for the record size is puzzling me a bit. Could someone explain how its supposed to work please?
Also, is the nut on the tone arm correct? I need to have the blue headed screw that far out for the arm to land on an album at the correct point that the tone arm is catching it so not going all the way down.

Sorry for all the questions.

'LIVEWIRE?' · 1st May 2019, 8:59 am

Looking at picture #4, the nut at the base of the tone arm appears correctly fitted, as does the associated spring. I would not attemt to adjust the set-down position until the mech. had been cleaned & re-lubed, paying particular attention to the cam gear & trip pawl. As to how the 'magidisc' size selector works, it basically depends on the lever's position. As has been noted, 10" & 12" diameter records trip the lever into one of two different positons, whilst 7" discs leave the lever fully 'up'. This, in turn moves items under the deck, which others may be able to explain better than I. Thanks for the model number. The service info for that model is available from the link 'up top' for £1.99, which helps to fund the forum.

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 10:20 am

Thanks for the info, Livewire. I'll purchase that now

If it doesn't come with the UA25 information, is the UA16 similar, as there is no UA25 type listed under BSR?

Thanks again
Regards
Mark

'LIVEWIRE?' · 1st May 2019, 10:48 am

If the Defiant service data is like a lot of the others, it won't have info. about the UA25, but, essentially the UA16 is the same mechanism, so a copy of that manual, plus the info. under the heading 'reviving your record player', which includes a general guide to servicing auto-changers, should help you.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=75401

The UA25 data may be on the Vinyl Engine siite. Just checked. No UA25 data on Vinyl Engine, either!

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 11:55 am

Finally making progress with the record size issue.
If I put one single on the player, the unit will play it no problem. However, if I put more than one on, the tone arm goes to a 10" setting instead of the 7" on the second record.
A couple of things I have noticed:-
1: After I start the player to play the first single, the size lever lifts up just before the record is dropped, the tone arm then goes across to the 7" record & when the tone arm drops onto the record, the size lever also drops. Is this correct?
2: The tone arm will lift up off the record normally & drop the second 7" to be played, but the size lever stays in the lower position and doesn't move, so the tone arm drops onto what it thinks is a 10" record.

I'm going to get the UA16 manual for guidance, but if somebody could throw some light onto this issue, I would appreciate it.

Regards
Mark

Edward Huggins · 1st May 2019, 12:23 pm

The BSR UA15 manual may be easier to find. The (later) BSR UA16 was slightly different and fewer were made. The even later UA25, is a much more value-engineered deck and again there are some differences.

camtechman · 1st May 2019, 12:55 pm

VIVAX,

I've noticed that the two screws on the base board (see red arrows pic below) may not to be set up correctly.

For storage or transit, both screws should be turned fully anti-clockwise but for play mode, they should be fully clockwise.

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 1:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

The BSR UA15 manual may be easier to find. The (later) BSR UA16 was slightly different and fewer were made. The even later UA25, is a much more value-engineered deck and again there are some differences.

The UA16 manual is available in the above link, but it hasn't helped me much tbh.

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 1:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by camtechman

For storage or transit, both screws should be turned fully anti-clockwise but for play mode, they should be fully clockwise.

Even with the transit screws right down, the unit still won't do more than one 7" at a time.

However, if I catch the tone arm on it's second single drop as it goes down for a 10", put it back on its rest and move the switch to auto, it will then drop the third single and land on it correctly.

So the symptoms are:-
1: Place two or more singles to be played on the auto changer spindle and move switch to auto to set the unit playing
2: First single drops, the tone arm lands on it correctly and plays it.
3: Finishes playing the first record, the tone arm returns to the start and the auto changer drops the next single.
4: The tone arm lands on what it thinks is a 10" record.
5: Lift tone arm manually and place back on its rest and move start switch to auto to set the unit playing again.
6: Tone arm drops onto the record correctly.

It's nearly there. I just have this one issue left that I can't for the life of me fathom out.

Just out of interest, two or more 12" albums play ok

Mark

Boater Sam · 1st May 2019, 1:56 pm

But you haven't serviced anything on the autochanger yet!
Its bunged up with old grease as you have been told, until you clean and lube it you will have problems.
The advice given was correct and good, just follow it.

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 2:01 pm

Sorry. Yes I have cleaned everything and relubed everything.

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 2:24 pm

I do apologize. I thought I had mentioned this in my first post this morning but I never.

Last night I cleaned off all the old grease and re-lubricated with vaseline. This included the mech, cam gear, turn table bearings and the auto changer. I removed the size detection mech again and stripped and cleaned it. I never lubricated the auto changer spindle or the size detection mech as its not supposed to be lubricated. Or so I read somewhere.
I have ordered some grease so I will replace the vaseline with grease when I replace the mains cable.

I haven't stripped the deck right down, I've only cleaned the parts that I could see.

tracypaper · 1st May 2019, 3:27 pm

Hi vivax14.
Looking at your pictures of the size selector (pic 3 in particular) it appears a spring is missing from the top end (the actual size selector itself) this mechanism should have two springs, not counting the one that can be seen lower down, one to throw back the black plastic selector and the other to push back the metal work the plastic selector is fixed to, This is the probable cause as to why it selects the first 7" and not the rest.
Gaz.

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 3:56 pm

Thanks for this info, Gaz.
I have two springs on the size selector. Should there be another one somewhere?
Hopefully you can see the springs in the 2nd picture.

Regards
Mark

tracypaper · 1st May 2019, 4:14 pm

Yes there should be another spring, it should be above the black plastic arm (which has it's spring) around the part where the top cir-clip is, one end of the spring rests on the aluminium arm and the other fits through the hole in the top, this hole can be seen in picture 5 and has some kind of brittle varnish in it which holds the spring in place. When I get home from work I will post a picture of a selector for you to compare.
If you can not find the spring in the player or in the tower (which is more likely) let me know, I have spares, I can send you one.
Gaz.

vivax14 · 1st May 2019, 5:39 pm

Hi Gaz,
That certainly explains why I can't get it working correctly

I have looked all over in the cabinet and in the area that the detection lever sits and I can't find the spring.
If you can pm me a price for the spring plus postage, I'll have one off you please.

30th Apr 2019, 4:16 pm	#1
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Hi all, My 14yr old daughter requested a record player for her room, so I decided to get my Defiant one out of the loft after its 30yr plus hibernation. After replacing the stylus, the unit plays surprisingly well considering how long it's been in the loft. It only has a few issues:- 1: The turntable slows down when the pickup is going onto or off the record 2: The pickup arm only goes to the edge of the turntable when 45 is selected. so it thinks a 7" single is a 10" single. Albums work fine. I'm a bit confused how it knows what size record you want to play as my previous players have had a speed and size selection. This has just got speed. I also wish to replace the capacitors in the power supply. If anyone has an idea where I can get a diagram I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance Attached Thumbnails

30th Apr 2019, 4:49 pm	#2
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,328	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Why do you need to replace the capacitors? If it's sounding OK, then no need to do this at all. As to the sluggish operation of the arm, it's most likely due to a lack of use and the old grease becoming hardened o the BSR UA25 autochanger. Do not use WD40 though, use Sewing Machine Oil and, where needed, Car Grease/Vaseline. As to the size selection - the small protruding finger on the pillar does this. Do ensure that the overarm is firmly pushed down onto the stack of records. __________________ Edward.

30th Apr 2019, 5:00 pm	#3
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation The turntable speed and the PU arm set-down problems are almost certainly caused by hardened grease, so clean and re-lube will be needed. See the 'sticky' threads (Reviving your Record Player') at the head of this section for details of how to service the autochanger. As for the electronics, I believe that someone over on GVR (Golbourne Vintage Radio) has, or had, some Defiant service manuals available. I'm also a member of GVT, so if I knew the model No. of that player, I could inquire on your behalf. That looks to be a fairly simple circuit, so should be easy to service. Basically capacitors, if they need replacing, should be changed for the nearest available value of the same or higher voltage rating, so, e.g., a 500uf Electrolytic should be replaced with a 470uf one.

30th Apr 2019, 6:34 pm	#5
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Thanks for the info, guys. I was going to change the caps just in case they had dried out. There's no buzz or anything. I'm guessing that it's a turntable out and strip down then for the record size issue is it? BTW, it's model no is MP7 I have to admit that the lever for the record size is puzzling me a bit. Could someone explain how its supposed to work please? Also, is the nut on the tone arm correct? I need to have the blue headed screw that far out for the arm to land on an album at the correct point that the tone arm is catching it so not going all the way down. Sorry for all the questions. Attached Thumbnails

1st May 2019, 8:59 am	#6
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Looking at picture #4, the nut at the base of the tone arm appears correctly fitted, as does the associated spring. I would not attemt to adjust the set-down position until the mech. had been cleaned & re-lubed, paying particular attention to the cam gear & trip pawl. As to how the 'magidisc' size selector works, it basically depends on the lever's position. As has been noted, 10" & 12" diameter records trip the lever into one of two different positons, whilst 7" discs leave the lever fully 'up'. This, in turn moves items under the deck, which others may be able to explain better than I. Thanks for the model number. The service info for that model is available from the link 'up top' for £1.99, which helps to fund the forum.

30th Apr 2019, 5:58 pm	#4
Techman Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 5,000	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation That's a UA25 record deck and the record size is selected when the record 'flips' that lever on the tower as it drops. Small 7" records don't touch it as they drop, but by the looks of the one in your picture, the lever is stuck halfway down due to hardened grease, so the unit always thinks that a larger record has dropped. It's no good just lifting the lever back up as it'll feel slack and the only solution is a strip down, clean and re-lubricate. Why do you want to replace power supply capacitors? If there's no hum on the sound and they're not bulging of getting warm, then leave them alone, as it's a transistorised amplifier and won't generally suffer the same capacitor type problems as a valve one.

1st May 2019, 10:20 am	#7
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Thanks for the info, Livewire. I'll purchase that now If it doesn't come with the UA25 information, is the UA16 similar, as there is no UA25 type listed under BSR? Thanks again Regards Mark

1st May 2019, 10:48 am	#8
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation If the Defiant service data is like a lot of the others, it won't have info. about the UA25, but, essentially the UA16 is the same mechanism, so a copy of that manual, plus the info. under the heading 'reviving your record player', which includes a general guide to servicing auto-changers, should help you. https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=75401 The UA25 data may be on the Vinyl Engine siite. Just checked. No UA25 data on Vinyl Engine, either! Last edited by 'LIVEWIRE?'; 1st May 2019 at 11:04 am.

1st May 2019, 11:55 am	#9
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Finally making progress with the record size issue. If I put one single on the player, the unit will play it no problem. However, if I put more than one on, the tone arm goes to a 10" setting instead of the 7" on the second record. A couple of things I have noticed:- 1: After I start the player to play the first single, the size lever lifts up just before the record is dropped, the tone arm then goes across to the 7" record & when the tone arm drops onto the record, the size lever also drops. Is this correct? 2: The tone arm will lift up off the record normally & drop the second 7" to be played, but the size lever stays in the lower position and doesn't move, so the tone arm drops onto what it thinks is a 10" record. I'm going to get the UA16 manual for guidance, but if somebody could throw some light onto this issue, I would appreciate it. Regards Mark

1st May 2019, 12:23 pm	#10
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,328	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation The BSR UA15 manual may be easier to find. The (later) BSR UA16 was slightly different and fewer were made. The even later UA25, is a much more value-engineered deck and again there are some differences. __________________ Edward.

1st May 2019, 12:55 pm	#11
camtechman Nonode Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Milton Keynes, Bucks. UK. Posts: 2,552	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation VIVAX, I've noticed that the two screws on the base board (see red arrows pic below) may not to be set up correctly. For storage or transit, both screws should be turned fully anti-clockwise but for play mode, they should be fully clockwise. Attached Thumbnails __________________ When I die, please don't let my Wife sell my collection for the amount I told her I paid for it! Last edited by camtechman; 1st May 2019 at 1:01 pm.

1st May 2019, 1:56 pm	#14
Boater Sam Banned Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines. Posts: 3,897	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation But you haven't serviced anything on the autochanger yet! Its bunged up with old grease as you have been told, until you clean and lube it you will have problems. The advice given was correct and good, just follow it.

1st May 2019, 2:01 pm	#15
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Sorry. Yes I have cleaned everything and relubed everything.

1st May 2019, 2:24 pm	#16
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation I do apologize. I thought I had mentioned this in my first post this morning but I never. Last night I cleaned off all the old grease and re-lubricated with vaseline. This included the mech, cam gear, turn table bearings and the auto changer. I removed the size detection mech again and stripped and cleaned it. I never lubricated the auto changer spindle or the size detection mech as its not supposed to be lubricated. Or so I read somewhere. I have ordered some grease so I will replace the vaseline with grease when I replace the mains cable. I haven't stripped the deck right down, I've only cleaned the parts that I could see. Attached Thumbnails

1st May 2019, 3:27 pm	#17
tracypaper Octode Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Beeston, Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,234	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Hi vivax14. Looking at your pictures of the size selector (pic 3 in particular) it appears a spring is missing from the top end (the actual size selector itself) this mechanism should have two springs, not counting the one that can be seen lower down, one to throw back the black plastic selector and the other to push back the metal work the plastic selector is fixed to, This is the probable cause as to why it selects the first 7" and not the rest. Gaz. Last edited by tracypaper; 1st May 2019 at 3:35 pm. Reason: more specific info added

1st May 2019, 3:56 pm	#18
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Thanks for this info, Gaz. I have two springs on the size selector. Should there be another one somewhere? Hopefully you can see the springs in the 2nd picture. Regards Mark Attached Thumbnails

1st May 2019, 4:14 pm	#19
tracypaper Octode Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Beeston, Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,234	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Yes there should be another spring, it should be above the black plastic arm (which has it's spring) around the part where the top cir-clip is, one end of the spring rests on the aluminium arm and the other fits through the hole in the top, this hole can be seen in picture 5 and has some kind of brittle varnish in it which holds the spring in place. When I get home from work I will post a picture of a selector for you to compare. If you can not find the spring in the player or in the tower (which is more likely) let me know, I have spares, I can send you one. Gaz. Last edited by tracypaper; 1st May 2019 at 4:24 pm. Reason: punctuation

1st May 2019, 5:39 pm	#20
vivax14 Triode Join Date: May 2017 Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 45	Re: Defiant Record Player Brought Out Of 30yr Hibernation Hi Gaz, That certainly explains why I can't get it working correctly I have looked all over in the cabinet and in the area that the detection lever sits and I can't find the spring. If you can pm me a price for the spring plus postage, I'll have one off you please.