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Vintage Test Gear and Workshop Equipment For discussions about vintage test gear and workshop equipment such as coil winders. |
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16th Dec 2009, 9:36 pm | #1 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 406
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Which frequency counter?
Hi Gents !
As you may know, I've a new toy in my bag : An HP 8601a generator/sweeper. It is working perfectly (once corrected for the stupidity of the owner...). It has a little problem, tough, setting the EXACT frequency of operation using the not enough smooth setting is difficult. Getting 455 kHz or 10.7 MHz is quite difficult. Of course, using my "El Cheapo" DMM with their frequency counter are of no help (for the same setting, the two I own vary from 4.57 MHz to 19.9 MHz ....) So I'm looking for a counter quite cheap and able to display up to 320 MHz (the troubleshooting procedure for the HP gen ask for a 320 MHz counter) and sufficiently precise to help me set the correct display on the generator. All advice will be taken gratefully. Many thanks in advance for your help ! |
16th Dec 2009, 10:15 pm | #2 |
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Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Can you not set up the centre frequency in CW mode using the built in crystal calibrator, centre the blip on the screen and then switch to sweep mode?
Counters need a good strong signal to work correctly. I think the AUX output should provide this,
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Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron. |
16th Dec 2009, 10:17 pm | #3 |
Retired Dormant Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 487
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Re: which frequency counter ?
I use a Black*Star Meteor 600 that does 5Hz to 600MHz, a nice large 8 digit LED display and it only cost me 25 quid second hand on eBay a few years ago.
with something like that you can`t really go wrong! the only slightly annoying thing is that when it`s Cold in the room you have to wait up to 10 mins before the display starts (some sort of Cyrstal warm-up I think). if I`m allowed, I will point out that there are few still on there in the same ball park price. |
16th Dec 2009, 11:55 pm | #4 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St.Ippolyts, Hitchin, Hertfordshire QRA IO91UW
Posts: 3,517
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Virtually any frequency counter will do the job - Ive got one made by Racal, and have used ones made by Marconi, HP, and Philips....
The Racal one is simple to use, as are variants by Marconi and HP.... Personally I wouldnt bother with the Philips ones - they are too fussy..... A quick browse around ebay will find loads of suitable candidates http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HP-5303A-500MH...item35a5b391c4 Looks to be about perfect for the job Cheers Sean
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17th Dec 2009, 12:36 am | #5 |
Nonode
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,571
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Re: which frequency counter ?
I also have a Black Star Meteor 600 which I bought new about 25 years ago. I also bought the service manual which I can scan and post if anyone is interested. It's a fairly basic counter but it does its job and I've never had any problems with it.
I did try to calibrate it once by measuring the output of the subcarrier oscillator of a TV tuned to an off air channel and adjusting the reference to get as close to 4.43361875MHz on the display. Took a bit of time but it did work. I took it to work once and checked the frequency range which actually extended to over 800MHz. I also remember using the HP 8601a generator briefly at university, must be about 30 years ago. Manually changing the frequency from one extreme to another took ages. Keith |
17th Dec 2009, 10:44 am | #6 |
Octode
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK.
Posts: 1,804
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Re: which frequency counter ?
The Black Star "Meteor" series of counters are quite reliable, accurate workhorses. They could, actually, be made considerably shallower since most of the gubbins is flush with the rear of the front panel, the rest of the case is fairly empty.
Neil
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17th Dec 2009, 1:21 pm | #7 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Western Lake District, Cumbria (CA20) - UK
Posts: 2,136
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Re: which frequency counter ?
The Black Star is a good instrument - designed to a proce and works well and reliably.
It must be said however that once the novelty has worn off the frequency counter is probably the least used piece of test gear in most amateur workshops. If you are doing development work, especially with pulse or digital circuits, a timer counter is very useful. For most other things though a decent scope is of much more use.
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Brian |
17th Dec 2009, 8:07 pm | #8 |
Nonode
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,571
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Here are the user and service manuals for the Meteor 100, 600 and 1000 frequency counters.
I also have the user manual for the Black Star Jupiter 500 function generator which I can post if anyone wants it. Keith |
17th Dec 2009, 10:31 pm | #9 |
Octode
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 1,522
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Re: which frequency counter ?
I'd highly recommend the Meteor Black Star. The only trouble I found was remembering to use the correct input socket for the range selected.
A handy tip for other meteor owners, improve frequency stability by thermally bonding the internal crystal to the PCB. I used black RTD silicon. The tempco cap is mounted on the PCB and with the crystal blowing in the breeze the can be a difference in temperatures. You can also easily add an external frequency reference (1 or 10 MHz iirc) the pins are already there on the pcb. I aded a TCXO to mine, a reference module from a GSM base station. For the first 20 minutes or so while it warms up, the original crystal is actually more accurate. Rob.
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22nd Dec 2009, 3:20 pm | #10 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 406
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Hi !
For the same price, I can get an HP 500 MHz counter (calibration status unknown, said working...) and a brand new noname Chinese counting up to 2.4 GHz. Here are the specs : # 8 digit LED display # 3 step function selections # Channel B (CH. B) input has an attenuator (x1, x20) # AC/DC coupling for low-pass filter # All functions depend on a single CPU # Crystal-controlled temperature circuit # 2 Input Channels : Channel A for 0.01 Hz to 50 MHz ; Channel B for 50 MHz to 2.4 GHz Channel A (0.01Hz to 50 MHz) * Frequency range : DC couple 0.01 Hz to 100 Hz ; AC couple 100 Hz to 50 MHz * Sensitivity : o "DC" 0.01 Hz - 1 Hz ≤ 500m Vp-p , 1 Hz - 100Hz ≤ 80m Vrms o "AC" 100 Hz - 50 M Hz ≤ 80m Vrms * Input impedance : 1 MΩ Channel B (50 MHz to 2.4 GHz) * Frequency : 50 MHz - 2.4 GHz * Sensitivity : 50 MHz - 1.2 GHz ≤ 80m Vrms 1.2 GHz - 2.4 GHz > 80m Vrms * Coupling : AC only * Input Impedance : 50 Ω # Resolution depends on gate time control setting # Time base: * Short time stability : ± 3 x 10-9 per second * Long time stability : ± 2 x 10-8 per month * Temperature drift coefficient : ± 1 x 10-7, 10°C - 40°C * Line voltage variation : ± 1 x 10-7 for line voltage ± 10% # Gate Time : Continously variable from 100ms to 10s # Precision : standard time error (t) x frequency (f) ±1d # Power supply : AC 220V or 110V ±10%, (50Hz / 60Hz) ±5% # Switchable between AC 220V or 110V (suitable for any countries) # Power cord with EU plug (also available in UK / AU / US plugs) # Preheat time : 20 minutes # Operating environment : 0°C - 50°C, 10 - 90% R.H. I'm in no way a specialist of this kind of tools but it seems that the stability figures are low ? What do you think ? Many thanks in advance ! P.S. I am unable to find any of the Black Star counters second hand... |
22nd Dec 2009, 3:54 pm | #11 |
Octode
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dorridge, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 1,475
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Re: which frequency counter ?
I would personally avoid the cheap meters, tried them they are not very stable unless you can feed them from and accurate TXO crystal assuming they have a suitable input. Most lower cost signal generators use a standard chip set which is how they have steadily improved performance as the chips have improved. They all rely on some form of oscillator usually crystal timed for measuring and the more you pay the better the oscillator. I personally found an old Racal 9917 much better to use than a cheap chinese one even though it had a higher range. The Racal has a proper oven-ised TXO which once warmed up is very stable. Having said all that it depends on what you need it for even the most basic ones are Ok for checking 455khz and 10.7Mhz and many times more accurate if they are working properly than the signal source. As well as Ebay have a look at http://www.stewart-of-reading.co.uk/...20Counters.htm
I have bought several items from them and have been very happy (I have no connection with them), and on basic equipment they often work out cheaper than auction sites. Merry Xmas Chris |
22nd Dec 2009, 6:25 pm | #12 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Western Lake District, Cumbria (CA20) - UK
Posts: 2,136
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Re: which frequency counter ?
I have recommended Stewart of Reading many times on the forum.
The great advantage of dealing with them is that they will supply a copy of the manual in most cases. That is pretty important and saves hours of fiddling around with an unfamiliar instrument. Again, I have no connection with them, except as a satisfied customer for over 25 years. The only problem for Georges is that carriage to France might be expensive. There are some forum members who spend time in the UK and France so the forum courier service might be able to help.
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Brian |
22nd Dec 2009, 6:42 pm | #13 |
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Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
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Re: which frequency counter ?
My Racal Dana 9913 has given every satisfaction. I bought it as not working and had to replace a FET in the input circuitry. This is a common problem, as counters often get high power RF squirted into them in error. There are several counters in the 99XX series with different ranges etc.
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Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron. |
23rd Dec 2009, 9:46 am | #14 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 406
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Hi !
Christmas came early this year. Talking with a guy at work, from the lab, he offered a HP5300 mainframe plus the counting part (goes up to 500 MHz he said). They are long retired from service but working. They did not sell with the others because somebody used the case as an iron stand ... and the face of the counter has peeled off. He may well have a manual somewhere .... But as it was free and working.... |
16th May 2010, 12:03 pm | #15 |
Retired Dormant Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Keith - I noticed you posted the user and service manuals for the black star meteor 600, I can open the user manual pdf ok, but the service manual is being difficult and won't open, is there any chance that you could send it to me or post it again. many thanks - John.
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16th May 2010, 1:42 pm | #16 |
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Welcome to the forums.
I had no difficulty opening either file directly from my browser. Try right clicking on the file name and selecting "Save target as". Then open the saved file. I'm using IE8 and Adobe reader 9.
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Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron. |
16th May 2010, 2:10 pm | #17 |
Nonode
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,571
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Both manuals were scanned using the software supplied with my scanner (Canon 4400F) in the same session and are readable on my PC using acrobat 7.
If you continue to have difficulties PM me and I'll email you a copy. Keith |
16th May 2010, 3:38 pm | #18 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Western Lake District, Cumbria (CA20) - UK
Posts: 2,136
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Both open fine for me too (Firefox 3.6.3 and Acrobat 7.0).
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Brian |
16th May 2010, 4:17 pm | #19 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 6,118
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Re: which frequency counter ?
They even open fine for me in IE6/Acrobat 5.0!
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16th May 2010, 4:18 pm | #20 | |
Pentode
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 167
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Re: which frequency counter ?
Quote:
So after reading this thread i am a little disallusioned with the phillips,got it working in a fashion but i dont have the user manual,so i dont know if all the button pressing is correct etc,i connected it to the IF output of my marconi mod meter and it correctly displayed 10mhz ..But i feel i,m not using it to its full potential,I searched around and only found the one site for the user manual,and it was ridicuosly expensive,had a look at stewarts and they have the Racal 9 series and the racal 19 series of counters,which one would be the best to purchase,they have all these with ovens etc,dont want to bake cakes only count lol.. Joking apart i suspect the oven type to be more accurate because the refrence crystal etc is kept at an optium temp etc,but its all very confusing for the newbie ! Best regards and the replies should be interesting-Roger. Last edited by Dave Moll; 16th May 2010 at 4:32 pm. Reason: quote fixed |
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