UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 28th Feb 2019, 3:37 pm   #101
Red to black
Nonode
 
Red to black's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 2,473
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Speaking of the Indiana 100/200 chassis and the 11AK 01/02 Maarten I was incorrect further back in this Thread

While the first Turkish Bush (later designated 11AK01) models do resemble the Indiana 100 in a lot of ways the latter chassis is clearly a later development of its forerunner with more modern chips, the Indiana 200 chassis being similar but with a more modern control and text section.

As you say the 11Ak02 uses the ITT digi chipset and is a completely different animal entirely.

Some (earlier ?) NEI models were based on Nikkai chassis, others were based on what eventually became Vestal (Indiana 100/200 chassis) not all of which were produced in Romania, these were made in Turkey too, and then the later Vestal designed/produced 11AK08, 11AK10 and 12 chassis.

Then there was the NEI CE25/28 sets some of which were made by Vestal in Turkey, but also some made in Spain by Clarivox, whether these two manufacturers were only contracted to make the sets/pcbs etc, or had an input in the design as well is unknown.
__________________
I don't suffer from Insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

Last edited by Red to black; 28th Feb 2019 at 3:44 pm.
Red to black is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 5:18 pm   #102
Maarten
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands
Posts: 4,184
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Thanks for the additional info!

Meanwhile I tried to find more about Clarivox. The only older set I could find online (I think in radiomuseum.org) seems to be Turkish as well, but manufactured by Beko as far as I can tell from the code number on the type label and I think the labels on the PCB's as well.

So I'm not yet sure on Clarivox. They did manufacture their own sets according to a schematic of a 1970's set I found (I think on Elektrotanya), but they might have switched to buy in in from Beko at some point, which could mean that the Clarivox version of the CE25/CE28 can also be linked to Turkey. Not sure, I could only find schematics of one version and the part numbers on it might be NEI or Clarivox internal so still not sure on the manufacturer.
Maarten is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 5:29 pm   #103
dazzlevision
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Near Swindon, North Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,595
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
Co-op sets used to be Rank supplied and could have the name 'Defiant'. These included the mono A640 and colour A823. I think I've seen a T20 series, but this time it had the Co-op badge.
Yes, I’ve a Co-op leaflet describing their CTVs around 1980 and they are clearly RRI T20/T22 sets branded Co-op rather than Defiant. When RRI was closed down in 1982, the Co-op would have to source their TVs from another supplier......apparently not Toshiba.
dazzlevision is online now  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 12:12 am   #104
hans
Heptode
 
hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oslo, Norway.
Posts: 632
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
The K80 (probably extinct too) wasn't nearly as good.
I worked on these sets in the end of the 80's. At this time they were pretty much at the end of their life. The print was getting chared and conductive at the hot spots. There was also intermittent faults and bad contacts. I can't remember the picture quality being out of the ordinary. These sets also had channel selector buttons that kept breaking.
I never saw any of these in the 90's.

Does anyone remeber if the picture quality was good when they were new?
hans is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 1:16 am   #105
Maarten
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands
Posts: 4,184
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

This is a set donated to Marcel after it had been in storage for at least 10 years but probably quite longer, which he made working again: http://www.marcelstvmuseum.com/Phili...1973%2000.html

The K80 was quite a strange beast, apparently designed around 1972 when the K9 was already on its way, apparently using 'scraps' from German and Austrian designs that never made it into their own sets. Austria never completed their own set for that generation as TV production was already being wound down in favour of VCR production and they opted to produce the K9 instead, while Germany came out around a year earlier or so with their own K8 variation, the K8D, which I suspect could have been originally intended to use the more advanced line output stage that eventually ended up in the K80 but used the older K8 design instead, opting to only modernise the small signal parts (which the somewhat newer Swedish design mostly didn't).

Last edited by Maarten; 1st Mar 2019 at 1:29 am.
Maarten is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 1:56 am   #106
Red to black
Nonode
 
Red to black's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 2,473
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Philips certainly had a bit of a convoluted chassis history Maarten

Speaking (earlier back in this thread) of complicated manuals , although the KT4/K40/system 4 manual was a bit of a 'culture shock' here in the UK compared to the kT3/K30 series, this was infinitely better than the 'Diversity tables' that was to come later L01.X et al
__________________
I don't suffer from Insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

Last edited by Red to black; 1st Mar 2019 at 2:00 am. Reason: Sp.
Red to black is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 2:21 am   #107
Red to black
Nonode
 
Red to black's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 2,473
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

To be fair, I can only think of about 5 or 6 manufacturers that had so many derivative's of a given chassis type, 4 of those are European, namely Thorn, Thomson, Philips, and Vestal.
The others are of far Eastern manufacture, and are Samsung and LG.

Even Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba and Hitachi mainly stayed with a given range. although Panasonic, Sony and Hitachi could assign similar chassis type numbers to vastly different Physical layouts within the same basic chassis group, probably the difference in attitude to nomenclature.

Edit : there are probably others/exceptions that I have forgotten about
__________________
I don't suffer from Insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

Last edited by Red to black; 1st Mar 2019 at 2:26 am.
Red to black is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 7:46 am   #108
Maarten
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands
Posts: 4,184
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

I think Vestel nowadays only produces roughly 3 chassis types at a time, but they have taken diversity to a whole new level (every set type has a customized mainboard which can vary over the production run) and don't really publicize detailed diversity tables... But I'm drifting off topic now.
Maarten is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 5:28 pm   #109
Stuart R
Heptode
 
Stuart R's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 690
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

The Boots TV12 in post 84 looks like it's a re-badged Bush Ranger 4. I've never seen any of them for real.

SR
Stuart R is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 6:06 pm   #110
Welsh Anorak
Dekatron
 
Welsh Anorak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: North Wales, UK.
Posts: 6,882
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

I was never impressed with the K80, especially against the far superior K70. The picture was ordinary against its prececessor's. Maybe due to the 110 degree tube?
They did have the dual PL509 in common, though I think early K70s used a PL509/504 arrangement. The line output transformer in the K80 used to short the -25V rail to chassis. This took me ages to find the first time!
__________________
Glyn
www.gdelectronics.wales
Welsh Anorak is online now  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 7:15 pm   #111
Richard_FM
Octode
 
Richard_FM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 1,999
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

I didn't realise Philips had so many development teams around the world, often overlapping their products reserch.

I can understand that in the past certain markets needed different areas of development, the UK arm seemed to have a lot of autonomy even after dual standard televisions were dropped from the range.
__________________
Hello IT: Have you Tried Turning It Off & On Again?
Richard_FM is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 8:14 pm   #112
Colourstar
Octode
 
Colourstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 1,397
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart R View Post
The Boots TV12 in post 84 looks like it's a re-badged Bush Ranger 4. I've never seen any of them for real.
Spot on Stuart! Well done. Having googled the Ranger 4 it is indeed the same set with that distinctive horizontal UHF tuning window. That's a 30-odd year mystery solved then! And no I've never seen either the Boots or the Bush for real either.

Steve
Colourstar is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2019, 12:01 am   #113
Maarten
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands
Posts: 4,184
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_FM View Post
I didn't realise Philips had so many development teams around the world, often overlapping their products reserch.

I can understand that in the past certain markets needed different areas of development, the UK arm seemed to have a lot of autonomy even after dual standard televisions were dropped from the range.
It was hard to get rid of legacy, but over the last 30 years Philips became so good at it that they got rid of everything...

Rationalisation of design and production began quite early. They tried to reduce overlap by bundle expertise on certain products in certain factories. High end TV sets were at some point dsigned and manufactured at Brugge, Krefeld and Norrköping. Krefeld switched to V2000 production after the K12 chassis. Norrköping concentrated on their other strong point, microwave ovens, during the 3A chassis development.

Mid end TV set design and production ended in the UK after the 2A chassis and was moved to Brugge and Dreux. Monza and Barcelona concentrated on portable design, but that was moved to Dreux at some point.

In the end, all high end design took place in Brugge while mid end and low end design was taken over by Singapore (already active with mostly adapted designs from Europe from the early 1970's).

I think the Aus/NZ market was also taken over by Singapore.

i think the last more or less decentralized design and manufacturing took place in Brazil (they started out with an adapted K7 chassis, but took over from there, with some support of the Dutch/Belgian staff probably) and in the US (they used some of the Global Range chassis designs, as did Brazil, but were always doing things their own way).
Maarten is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2019, 12:36 am   #114
Red to black
Nonode
 
Red to black's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 2,473
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Philips must have spent an absolute fortune over the years, one problem I always found was that a product was rarely if ever really finalised.
Now don't get me wrong product improvement and development is a fine thing, top marks to Philips in this endeavour, however they just continually tinkered and modified on an on-going basis, never really reaping the rewards of a design that should have been by then frozen, before they scooted off on the next design with a rinse and repeat performance.

I admire them for what they did, no doubt about that at all, and striving for the best performance is admirable in itself, however it really must have cost a fortune and I am surprised this never sank them earlier.

Another thing is, especially in the latter years, was their design tolerances seemed to be far too tight (L6,X chassis here) where 4.9V was too low on a nominal 5V line ?, I mean at the end of the day these products are commodity 'consumer goods' and hardly need to be up to laboratory standard, and as I said whilst an admirable trait itself is just not profitable long term, especially in a consumer goods market for the prices in this bracket.

Now I am not saying they should have designed their products 'shoddily' by any stretch here, just maybe designed something with reasonably wide tolerances that is expected in that market, then freeze the design and get some money back from what was no doubt a sizable investment at the outset before you move on to the next in line.

I still take my hat off to them for doing what they did though

Thorn did this to an extent too, usually by extending the screen size on a chassis that it was never originally designed for (20" TX90 anyone), this was often a bridge too far in the reliability stakes. probably also guilty of designing on the limit as it were too.

Thomson did this too at different times, also along with Thorn in designing too many variations, it too must have cost dearly.
__________________
I don't suffer from Insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

Last edited by Red to black; 2nd Mar 2019 at 1:03 am.
Red to black is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2019, 8:50 am   #115
Vectamart
Pentode
 
Vectamart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ventnor, Isle of Wight, UK.
Posts: 141
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips210 View Post
I think the 110 degree delta gun sets from the mid 1970s must be thin on the ground now. Models I was thinking about were RRI Z179, Thorn 4000, Philips G9, Grundig 5012, Telefunken 711 and many other continentals such as Saba, ASA, Finlandia etc. The Finlux Peacock must be in the rare class now.

The 90 degree delta gun Thorn 9800, early PIL sets like the GEC 20AX, ITT CVC20, Decca 70/90/110 and Thorn 9000 aren't seen very often.
To be fair, I don't remember there ever being many 110-degree delta gun sets around even when they were current. I remember the Philips G9, a German made ITT 26" model, plus sets from the likes of Grundig, Nordmende, etc. I reckon sets of that ilk only ever accounted for about 5% of our service work.
Vectamart is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2019, 8:51 am   #116
Vectamart
Pentode
 
Vectamart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ventnor, Isle of Wight, UK.
Posts: 141
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzlevision View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
Co-op sets used to be Rank supplied and could have the name 'Defiant'. These included the mono A640 and colour A823. I think I've seen a T20 series, but this time it had the Co-op badge.
Yes, I’ve a Co-op leaflet describing their CTVs around 1980 and they are clearly RRI T20/T22 sets branded Co-op rather than Defiant. When RRI was closed down in 1982, the Co-op would have to source their TVs from another supplier......apparently not Toshiba.
I handled a few sets during the 1980s that were fitted with Philips K30 and KT3 chassis.
Vectamart is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2019, 8:54 am   #117
Vectamart
Pentode
 
Vectamart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ventnor, Isle of Wight, UK.
Posts: 141
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart R View Post
The Boots TV12 in post 84 looks like it's a re-badged Bush Ranger 4. I've never seen any of them for real.
I have Boots 12" clone of a Bush Ranger in my collection.
Vectamart is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2019, 8:56 am   #118
Vectamart
Pentode
 
Vectamart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ventnor, Isle of Wight, UK.
Posts: 141
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
I was never impressed with the K80, especially against the far superior K70. The picture was ordinary against its prececessor's. Maybe due to the 110 degree tube?
They did have the dual PL509 in common, though I think early K70s used a PL509/504 arrangement. The line output transformer in the K80 used to short the -25V rail to chassis. This took me ages to find the first time!
I remember there being two variations of the K70. One had two PL509 valves and the other had one PL509 plus a PL504.
Vectamart is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2019, 11:55 am   #119
Welsh Anorak
Dekatron
 
Welsh Anorak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: North Wales, UK.
Posts: 6,882
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

I totally agree with R2B about his assessmant of Philips. Without their R&D there would be no cassette or CD, or at least no recognisable form of this. Sony were great innovators too, but whereas the Japanese threw all their designs at the market to see what stuck (Elcaset, Betamax, Minidisc, video8, indexed CRTs) with varying success, Philips seemed to lose interest (DCC, V2000) once it had been developed and didn't give it the backing it might have deserved.
Their products in the Nineties and onwards were technically very advanced (Simply Years Ahead?) but because of this reliability wasn't the best, and required some specialist equipment to set up and repair, such as for SMD rework, video head replacement and software updating. This didn't go down too well in the average workshop used to handling many makes of products. Most customers just wanted a box in the corner that didn't go expensively wrong. Their ESF series of CRTs were a case in point, producing some of the best pictures I've seen, but failing too early. The similar Thomson CRTs went on for ever with a frankly terrible picture, but I never had a customer complain about their quality.
Also, from the history Maarten gves, it's clear some global joined up thinking could have saved them a lot of duplication. Easy to say now, of course, when, for example, a 'one size fits all' TV can be unboxed virtually anywhere and the global world has shrunk.
Now Philips TVs are made by TPV and they are terrible. Unobtainable backlights fail within a couple of years, the 'Ambilight' strips melt the screen and LCD contamination is rife.
A pity.
__________________
Glyn
www.gdelectronics.wales
Welsh Anorak is online now  
Old 4th Mar 2019, 11:18 am   #120
Focus Diode
Octode
 
Focus Diode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Borough of Gateshead, UK.
Posts: 1,420
Default Re: Extinct or very hard to find sets (625 lines to 1990)

It occurred to me on viewing the excellent 1976 drama, 'Bill Brand' (Network DVD) late dual standard GECs appear very hard to find nowadays, though a few Series 1 single standard versions have survived.

I presume this will use the all valve 2000 series chassis? Looks to be a 20" model.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190302_153547.jpg
Views:	162
Size:	127.2 KB
ID:	179388  
Focus Diode is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:16 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.