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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 3:16 pm   #1
ZiggyUK
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Default New digital phones line

In a weeks time my phone line is being changed to the new digital line so my phones will have to go into the router.
I have already converted my house wires so a single plug will go into the router, so that is ready.

But.... I love my rotary phones, I bought a tone converter to go on the cord to allow it to dial out.
I have realised the model I bought only has 2 wires, does this mean I will loose the ring function? can I "pass through" the third wire (ie bypass the device)?
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 3:28 pm   #2
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Default Re: New digital phones line

How are your old, rotary phones connected? Hard-wired with the bells in series, as per GPO practice, or via "431A" BT plugs and sockets with the bells in parallel?

N.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 3:33 pm   #3
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Default Re: New digital phones line

An old ADSL microfilter will generate a ring signal from a 2 wire connection.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 3:58 pm   #4
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickthedentist View Post
How are your old, rotary phones connected? Hard-wired with the bells in series, as per GPO practice, or via "431A" BT plugs and sockets with the bells in parallel?

N.
The main one is a 332 with internal bell which I bough a kit to rewire and convert to work with a modern BT plug.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 3:59 pm   #5
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
An old ADSL microfilter will generate a ring signal from a 2 wire connection.
Oh wow, thank you for this, I have a lot of those in a draw. That is good news.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 5:40 pm   #6
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
An old ADSL microfilter will generate a ring signal from a 2 wire connection.
Unfortunately that does not work, not the end or the world I suppose as I have an additional external bell box that makes a nice sound.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 6:48 pm   #7
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Default Re: New digital phones line

It should work. There's a capacitor in the microfilter that generates a signal on the ring wire, just like the BT wall box on a copper system. Maybe the router VoIP socket doesn't produce enough power to ring the phone.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 7:13 pm   #8
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Yes, it should work.

How many phones are connected to the router's pseudo-POTS port?

I suspect the issue could be the modern version of not having a total REN exceeding 4 on the router's downstream.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 8:39 pm   #9
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
It should work. There's a capacitor in the microfilter that generates a signal on the ring wire, just like the BT wall box on a copper system. Maybe the router VoIP socket doesn't produce enough power to ring the phone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
Yes, it should work.

How many phones are connected to the router's pseudo-POTS port?

I suspect the issue could be the modern version of not having a total REN exceeding 4 on the router's downstream.
I'm still on POTS at the moment, I'm trying to get everything working on a known system before my switchover on 14th November.

I connected my red & white (2 & 5) onto the DTMF converter but obviously cut my green (3) ring wire. Everything works, I can make and receive calls without problem, the DTFM is working as I can hear the tones, just no ring on incoming call.

The microfilter did not help, I tried a second one in case the first was faulty but still nothing.

I do have a total REN of 4 but that should not be the problem as it was working before I disconnected the green bell wire, I have also unplugged the additional bell box I have to take the REN down to 3 but no help unfortunately.

I will be interested to see what REN my router can handle when it goes live.

I guess there is nothing stopping me from connecting the green externally to the DTMF unit, which should get the ring back, it just wont look great.
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Old 4th Nov 2023, 12:49 pm   #10
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Just to update here, the DTFM device must be somehow be blocking the ring signal as even with the ring wire connected externally to the DTFM unit it still will not ring.
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Old 4th Nov 2023, 10:23 pm   #11
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Do you have the ADSL filter between the dialling converter and the telephone, and the ring wire connected?

I am rather concerned by your statement that "obviously cut my green (3) ring wire". Normally, blue (next to red in the cable) is used as the ring wire.

If you are unable to get your'phone to ring from an external ring wire, the alternative is to reconnect the internal capacitor in the telephone.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 11:44 am   #12
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
Do you have the ADSL filter between the dialling converter and the telephone, and the ring wire connected?

I am rather concerned by your statement that "obviously cut my green (3) ring wire". Normally, blue (next to red in the cable) is used as the ring wire.

If you are unable to get your'phone to ring from an external ring wire, the alternative is to reconnect the internal capacitor in the telephone.
Should the ADSL filter be between the phone and converter? I fitted it in the wall outlet then plugged the phone lead into it.
I'm not sure how I could fit it between the converter and phone as you only have two screw down connectors on the phone side of the unit an an RJ12 on the wall socket side of the unit.
It was easy to use a standard 2 wire phone cable plugged into the wall socket and the other end, the rj12 into the converter, then snip the phone cable and screw down the red and white into the converter with the blue and green snipped off.

This is the converter:
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...1&d=1699180936

I should have said blue and green were not in use and "cut" both are now reconnected externally to the unit.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 11:57 am   #13
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Default Re: New digital phones line

The microfilter should be between the phone and the converter box.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 12:43 pm   #14
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Virgin Media tell us that they will be converting our phones in the New Year to an internet connection instead of the present hardwired arrangement. I understand that our phones will be connected into the router. I assume that we shall therefore no longer get the 75V 20Hz ringing current to make vintage phone bells ring. Is that the problem that Ziggy is experiencing?

Maybe one can buy a local ringing current generator?

Martin
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 1:39 pm   #15
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
The microfilter should be between the phone and the converter box.
Thank you I will reinstate the original phone cable and wire the micro filter into the outlet of the converter.
This will allow me to simply plug the phone into the micro filter.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 1:49 pm   #16
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
Virgin Media tell us that they will be converting our phones in the New Year to an internet connection instead of the present hardwired arrangement. I understand that our phones will be connected into the router. I assume that we shall therefore no longer get the 75V 20Hz ringing current to make vintage phone bells ring. Is that the problem that Ziggy is experiencing?

Maybe one can buy a local ringing current generator?

Martin
It is not the issue I am experiencing.
As far as I know the router will provide the power to make phones ring, the only issue is they won't use the pulse that a dial phone produces to make a call so you need a DTMF converter to make the dial work.
My issue (and my mistake) was I bought a two cable converter which rendered my ring unusable. But the DTMF converter works a treat.

I misunderstood the help above and placed the micro filter in the wrong location, I am confident all will work correctly once I follow the latest advice above.

PS - I rewired my house wiring so its no longer wired from the back of the master socket but instead into a junction box which has a flying lead with BT plug on the end. the BT plug is currently plugged into the master socket and when my system gets changed I will simply move that plug from the master socket to the router so my house wiring remains supported.

After the change over there will only be the 2 BT wires in the master socket and my phones will all be plugged into the router via the single BT plug, its neat and simple.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 5:13 pm   #17
Patrick Dixon
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
Virgin Media tell us that they will be converting our phones in the New Year to an internet connection instead of the present hardwired arrangement. I understand that our phones will be connected into the router. I assume that we shall therefore no longer get the 75V 20Hz ringing current to make vintage phone bells ring. Is that the problem that Ziggy is experiencing?

Maybe one can buy a local ringing current generator?

Martin
I'm on BT but it should be the same idea. I bought a pulse dialer converter and it rings my 332 fine.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 9:07 pm   #18
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
The microfilter should be between the phone and the converter box.
Unfortunately my optimism was misguided

I reinstated the phone cable with a replacement cable and confirmed it still rings and works correctly on the current POTS line, it did, all go so far.

Step two I wired the micro filter between the converter and the phone but then lost everything, no dial tone even.

So I'm afraid I'm stuck with either using the DTMF converter without the micro filter (they just don't play together) and everything works except the ring.

Or option two, plug the phone straight into the wall outlet and forget the converter, after switch over it should then ring but without being able to dial. I think this is actually the option I will take as I just bought a hand held DTMF generator (they are rare to find now) but I found one for sale and quite honestly holding that against the mouth piece and pressing buttons is far easier than the dial anyway.

Thanks for all the advice all.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 9:37 pm   #19
paulsherwin
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Default Re: New digital phones line

I think there is an undiagnosed problem here.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 10:10 pm   #20
ZiggyUK
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Default Re: New digital phones line

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
I think there is an undiagnosed problem here.
I have worked it out and it was a dumb error on my part.
I had assumed the cable on the micro filter was a standard cross over but is was a straight through.
The outside voice pair on the BT plug go to the outside pair on the RJ12, I have wrongly assumed it was the middle two on the RJ12.

Having used my multimeter are realised it is the outside pair (yellow & Black) I need, it all works perfectly.
Thanks for all your help, all perfect now.

Fixed.
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