UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Computers

Notices

Vintage Computers Any vintage computer systems, calculators, video games etc., but with an emphasis on 1980s and earlier equipment.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 20th Sep 2023, 8:18 pm   #1
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Nibl-e

There was a thread last year 'Source code for NIBL recovered' which gave a link to the source files for NIBL http://www.moria.de/tech/scmp/software/. This page suggests that the source for NIBL-E is in the download but it only seems to have original NIBL in it ?

I was trying to find the source code to see how to run it ?, what is the entry address for NIBL-E ?
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Sep 2023, 9:12 pm   #2
Realtime
Hexode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Ashford, Kent, UK
Posts: 304
Default Re: Nibl-e

The file nibl.tar.gz does include a nible.asm (in the nibl folder) and a quick look shows the program area is in a different place to the original (0x1000 instead of 0x0000). Is that the one you need?
Realtime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Sep 2023, 9:56 pm   #3
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

https://github.com/ekuester/SCMP-INS...ree/main/NIBLE

My understanding (as a NIBL enthusiast) is that NIBL-E was created by manual patching of some 300 locations, its IL layered approach prevented a simple re-ORG
and that any NIBL-E source comes from reverse engineering the Elektor binary image
(This is my understanding of the situation & may not be correct)

Last edited by Phil__G; 20th Sep 2023 at 10:25 pm.
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Sep 2023, 10:30 am   #4
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Re: Nibl-e

Don't know what happened when I originally loaded the nibl.tar.gz as I only seemed to get one file, just tried again and I get the whole folder !

Thanks for the link to the github version Phil.

I seem to have it running but I can't get the baud rate correct, I'm running the 600baud version but with a 4MHz crystal (MK14). I've tried just setting the terminal baud rate to 1200 but still get garbage ?
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Sep 2023, 11:48 am   #5
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

The serial routines are pretty much identical to Kitbug Chris, you could compare delay values. Also Ronald has a table of baud-rate patches for NIBL:
https://www.dos4ever.com/SCMP/SCMP.html#NIBLE

Presumably you're running 4Mhz, not 4.43?
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Sep 2023, 5:21 pm   #6
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Re: Nibl-e

I was running it at 4MHz but I've just popped a 2MHz crystal on the back of the board and that works ! Though every other letter is missing so probably need to tweak the terminal program or something ?

Anyway I'm happy as now the MK14E is running NIBL-E !

I'm away for a few days but can get back to finishing MK14E off next week.

Chris
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Sep 2023, 5:46 pm   #7
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

That is weird. Literally every alternate character is omitted from a printed string or listing?
Maybe parity is enabled so its discarding characters that happen not to match up? (50:50)
But its receiving every manually typed character from the terminal input?

and this is at 1200baud and 2Mhz, with code thats expected to be 1200baud with 4Mhz delays?
So presumably at 4Mhz you get a 2400bd console with 1200baud/4Mhz code?
Re the 2Mhz/4Mhz thing, could the clock be ringing? (I always use unbuffered HCU for clocks, it goes linear more cleanly)
Or could this be a "SCMP I" vs "SCMP II" thing with the NIBL-E software? (ie ISP-8A-500/600 clock speeds)

I use 1200baud, 8bit, no parity, 1 stop, no flow control on the 4Mhz INS8060 SCMP II


.

Last edited by Phil__G; 21st Sep 2023 at 6:05 pm.
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Sep 2023, 5:52 pm   #8
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Re: Nibl-e

I only had time for a quick play - 'Syntax error' only came out as 4 or 5 characters and I think PRINT TOP returned 4 digits.

It'll have to wait till next week now though.
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Sep 2023, 7:33 pm   #9
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

SNTX is correct Chis ! NIBL error messages are very brief!
Also, PR TOP applies only to the current 4k page, so unless you're on a higher page, 4 digits is quite likely.
The PICLv2 for example has only two pages so will never report more than 4 digits for PR TOP

Hope you catch this before you go away, so you're not worrying that something is wrong!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	nibl_err.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	59.5 KB
ID:	285344   Click image for larger version

Name:	PR_TOP.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	25.5 KB
ID:	285346  

Last edited by Phil__G; 21st Sep 2023 at 7:56 pm.
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th Sep 2023, 7:58 pm   #10
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Re: Nibl-e

I've created a 4MHz Clock, 1200 baud version of NIBL-E using the table from DOS4Ever. Is there an error in the table as address 1F89 doesn't make sense and neither does 1F98 if its a typo ? Neither address refer to a delay value ?

I ignored that change and its kind of working. I had to enable local echo because NIBL doesn't although I'm getting a non-printable character after every character that I type ! Though output from NIBL seems to be correct e.g. from LIST. I'm using PUTTY ?

That's enough for tonight having just returned from a long weekend away, I'll be able to have a better play tomorrow evening.
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th Sep 2023, 8:38 pm   #11
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,241
Default Re: Nibl-e

Does NIBL set the high bit on every character echoed? That might make it unprintable.
Mark1960 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th Sep 2023, 10:39 pm   #12
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisOddy View Post
I had to enable local echo because NIBL doesn't although I'm getting a non-printable character after every character that I type ! .
It should echo every character you type Chris, you shouldn't need local echo.
It actually echoes bit by bit rather than character by character like a UART.
Sounds like the garbage character received is the echo, the bit 7 bug was unique to Kitbug but didn't I read that the guy had replaced the I/O routines, if so it might have the bit 7 set bug.
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th Sep 2023, 11:58 pm   #13
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

That weird table entry is a typo, in the original NIBL (org 0) it should be 0FB9, so hopefully 1FB9 in NIBLE.
From Erik Skovgaard's article, I've just checked all these and they are correct for NIBL:
Code:
Table 2. NIBL 4mhz SC/MP II Baud Rate Changes 


Address 	0F85   0F87    0F94	0F96 	0FB9 	0FC4	0FC6	OFDO 	0FD2
110 Baud	C3  	08 	45 	11 	11 	BB 	2F 	54 	11 
300 Baud	29  	03 	11 	06 	06 	6C 	06 	21 	06 
600 Baud	8A  	01 	D4 	02 	03 	2D 	03 	E5 	02 
1200 Baud 	BB 	00 	34 	01 	01 	99 	01 	44 	01
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th Sep 2023, 12:32 am   #14
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

Forgot to make the main point, which is that 1FB9 is the stop bit delay,
this is the very thing that fixes the bit-7 bug that we see in the original Kitbug.
I think if you leave 1F89 as it was and set 1FB9 to 01 your corrupted characters and echo will be ok

Last edited by Phil__G; 26th Sep 2023 at 12:47 am.
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th Sep 2023, 8:30 pm   #15
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Re: Nibl-e

Sorted, thanks Phil - correcting the EPROM changes was part of the problem but I also had to configure Putty for 7 bits and that cleared the non-printing characters.

I now have NIBL-E working with the VDU although it depends which order the VDU and Expansion card are plugged into the backplane !, something is a bit marginal somewhere so back out with the scope.
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th Sep 2023, 8:47 pm   #16
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

Great news, its coming along nicely.
The 1FB9 change that sets the stop bit should allow you to use the normal 8 bit setting Chris, you shouldnt need to drop to 7 bits, both NIBL & the corrected Kitbug both send 8. No biggie if it works.

How have you got the NIBL serial to talk to the MK14 memory-mapped VDU, did you change NIBL's output routine or is there something inbetween?


BTW I've sent Ronald a new table
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th Sep 2023, 9:06 pm   #17
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Re: Nibl-e

I'm still using serial to a terminal but I can write a NIBL program to e.g. clear the screen or write a sequence to display the character set.

The VDU has to be disabled when typing of course because it completely messes up the serial comms !
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jan 2024, 5:02 pm   #18
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

I'd like to try & tidy up NIBL-E as it seems to be in a bit of a mess.
Elektor's original and Ronalds recovery of it both have the GECO: bit7-set bug, so does Erich K├╝ster's recent github version, Ronalds 'new' and 'orig' NIBL-E binaries are identical (both with the bit7 bug) apart from a few padding bytes at the end, there are two baudrate-patch-tables for bugged and fixed versions, the 'fixed' table above will trash the bugged version when it overwrites code where the non-existent stop-bit delay should be... some versions have transposed error messages - its a bit of a mess. Also I fancy adding 6850 acia support for the 'SC/MP Max' pcb (Mike presently bypasses it).
What state is your NIBL-E in now Chris, are you at 1200, do you have the bit7 set bug on echo, if you break out of a listing does it say BRK or ERR? Is your prompt '<' or '>' ?
Ta v much
Phil
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jan 2024, 10:28 pm   #19
ChrisOddy
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK
Posts: 131
Default Re: Nibl-e

My bench area is setup for another project at the moment (and I have to pop into work for a couple of days !) but after that I should have the final (I hope) MK14E PCB to load and will have a look at NIBL-E then.
ChrisOddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jan 2024, 11:02 pm   #20
Phil__G
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,019
Default Re: Nibl-e

Cool thanks Chris
Phil__G is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 4:27 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.