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Old 8th Apr 2018, 9:48 am   #41
peter_scott
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_scott View Post
It might just be my lack of observation but I don't think I've ever seen these licence plates in any of the Marconi-EMI pre-war televisions with or without radios.
Aha! I think this explains my lack of observation.

Peter
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 10:00 am   #42
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

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Originally Posted by Phil G4SPZ View Post
Is it fair to assume, then, that the A8 licences ran from January 1958 onwards?
Maybe.

It seems possible that if the conditions remained unchanged, the existing licence number would have been used for the next period or part thereof. From A3 in 1930 to A7 in 1953 is around six years per suffix number, as against with the empirical evidence that the usual licence period was around three years.


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Old 8th Apr 2018, 10:21 am   #43
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

I wonder what proportion of the manufacturing cost of a set represented royalties.
Also, did all the small backstreet post-war setmakers obtain licences, or did they 'get away with it'?Edit: Were radio kits subject to licensing fees? If so, how little assembly constituted a 'kit'?
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 10:27 am   #44
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

The patent control business would have become ineffective once the rate of development had slowed down to the point where some firm could make an effective radio by using only expired patents. The pools, in order to be effective, needed a steady influx of new patents to take over from expired ones, and the new ones had to concern something that the market had to have in order to be competitive.

Patents are deliberately limited in their length. Patents are a tool of government which offers a limited period of legal protection in return for revealing what would otherwise be a trade secret, and possibly kept secret for a far longer period (think coca-cola). It is an attempt by the government of a country to prevent secrecy stifling progress in its industries.

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Old 8th Apr 2018, 11:07 am   #45
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In general, patents are not enforceable against individuals who make or do something privately for non-commercial purposes. Action can only be taken against those who do things commercially, which in some circumstances can include the provision of a kit of parts which, when assembled, would be an infringement. A factor can be how the instructions are worded.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 12:07 pm   #46
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

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Patents are deliberately limited in their length. Patents are a tool of government which offers a limited period of legal protection in return for revealing what would otherwise be a trade secret, and possibly kept secret for a far longer period (think coca-cola). It is an attempt by the government of a country to prevent secrecy stifling progress in its industries.
You couldn't patent something like Coca Cola anyway. The main reason for patents is to encourage companies to innovate. If you invested millions developing a new product and then anyone could steal the idea you wouldn't bother developing it in the first place. It's especially a problem for drug companies where developing a new drug is a big investment in time and money. If they weren't protected by patents long enough to recoup the investment there would be no new drugs.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 12:12 pm   #47
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

Here is the A6 Royalty plate from the back of my Philips B3G63A (pre-restoration) - I think c.1956.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 1:38 pm   #48
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

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Originally Posted by dseymo1 View Post
I wonder what proportion of the manufacturing cost of a set represented royalties.
Also, did all the small backstreet post-war setmakers obtain licences, or did they 'get away with it'?Edit: Were radio kits subject to licensing fees? If so, how little assembly constituted a 'kit'?
A paragraph mentioning "Spivs" from the link I included in Post #34
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 3:54 pm   #49
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Hi

There seems to be some inconsistency as to where these plates are applied. One observation, I don't think Hacker radios had them fitted as a quick look in the Sovereign, Hunter, Herald and Helmsman models in my collection reveals that there is no sign of a licence plate. The 1965 Roberts R404 doesn't have one either. I also have a 1964 Decca TP99, again no plate.
It would be interesting to find out when the last licence was used and in what set.
From my observations it seems around 1964 was the last year that these plates were used unless anyone knows of any later examples.

Regards
Symon
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 4:41 pm   #50
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

Here is the list of radios and various licences so far, thanks to all who have contributed their examples.
radio licence numbers.xls

As I understand it prior to Aug 28 1928 the A2 licence was in existence. From Aug 28 1928 to Aug 28 1933 it was the A3 licence.
But as yet we have no mention of A4 & A5 licences.
To me it seems it is still too early to take many conclusions on the dates.
I think there will be many variables effecting what licence went in what radio.
Mainly the age of the design. But the manufacturers diligence to get the correct label fitted to each set also seems quite important to me.
I have seen a few radios where all there is left is a patch of glue in the shape of a licence.

Lets hope we can get some early examples of the A1 A2 A3 A4 and A5 licences, and some definite indication of when they finished.
As I mentioned I have had a good look around my later transistor sets and have found nothing after 1962.

Mike
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 4:51 pm   #51
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

There's a brief mention of the A5 licence here:

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/...rch=%22licence pool%22

Lawrence.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 7:10 pm   #52
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Smile Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

Hi,
I have a few of these plates that have fallen off various bits of kit over the years. I don't know what they belong to, so probably no use to your survey.
However, I have one which does not have the 'hexagon' badge, but does state how many valves the apparatus had (five in this case). Perhaps this decided how much licence fee the listener would be subject to? Did that include rectifiers and/or tuning indicators? If tuning indicators, would the EFM1 count?
Cheers, Pete.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 7:40 pm   #53
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As far as I can tell, these licence plates relate to patent licences issues by the British Licensing Pool and nothing to do with a GPO receiving licence. This organisation seems to have been something like the BVA cartel. There's an interesting document here: https://academic.oup.com/rpc/article...1/52-3-104.pdf that gives a little insight.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 8:53 pm   #54
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We now know the full name of our Mr F.C. Topham. Frank Charles Topham who ran the British Licensing Pool from the Marconi offices at Electra House, Victoria Embankment, London,. W.C.2

I posted another court case in post #35 but the URL has "session expired" I'll post the referrer's academic.oup.com as you have done.

Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Co Ld v Philips Lamps Ld

No less a personage than Alan Dower Blumlein giving evidence for the Plaintiff, Marconi.

https://academic.oup.com/rpc/article...1/50-9-287.pdf
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 9:02 pm   #55
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

...and Sir Stafford Cripps as barrister for the defendant.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 9:19 pm   #56
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

Hi

A few more for the database:

Philips B3G63A A6 plate
GEC BC5842 A7-S plate
Pye P93W/U A7-S plate

The first attached pic shows the license plate from a 1937 Pilot U385 and the second pic shows the license plate from a 1946 Philips 170A.

Interestingly, both of my accessible Bush DAC90A radios don't have a license plate though the similar age DAC10 sets do. There does not seem to be any consistency in the way they are applied to some makes/models.

Regards
Symon.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 9:51 pm   #57
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Apparently, there were two main British patent licence pools sometime prior to the second world war, and manufacturers had to choose between them as to what technology to use. This might explain why some sets had plates and others didn't. The two competing pools meant that manufacturers could not realistically produce designs that incorporated the best of both. The Marconi pool and Mullard-Philips pool's legal feud made it to the House of Lords and by 1939 they had pretty much all joined together into the British Licensing Pool. Standard terms were 0.2% on radios and 0.4% on tellies. Any British manufacturer could get a licence, with the only condition being that no set could be sold with an import content greater than 10%.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 9:55 pm   #58
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Default Re: Royalty has been paid on this apparatus...

Hello,
Here are some details of the A4 licence, which was a five year agreement ending on the 28th August 1938.
It would appear that before the A4 licence there was the A3 licence and a RG2 licence for radiorgams.
(I have photographed the pages in two parts for better readability so the first picture is the top of the first page and picture two is the bottom of the same page etc.) (The pictures are continued in a second post)
Yours, Richard
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 10:00 pm   #59
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Hello,
The rest of the pages.
Yours, Richard
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 10:13 pm   #60
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This is worth a read: http://eh.net/eha/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Scott.pdf.

It's titled The origins of the Anglo-American `productivity gap’ in electronics: the
British and American interwar radio equipment industries. It tells a a lot of the story of radio patent licensing in the UK.
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