UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 28th May 2013, 1:16 am   #1
FERNSEH
Dekatron
 
FERNSEH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 7,444
Default Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

It is accepted that the Pye VT4 was the first 13 channel TV set to be marketed in the UK. However, I've just been looking through the 1953/54 Newnes Radio and Television servicing book and it is evident that there was three other firms offering 13 channel sets only a few months after the Pye set.
They were: Baird model P2114, Bush TV24C and TV36C and the English Electric model T40. All these sets were made in 1954, a year before the ITV started.
I'm not sure about the very rare Ferguson 103T, 1954 or 1955?

DFWB.
FERNSEH is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 8:51 am   #2
Heatercathodeshort
Dekatron
 
Heatercathodeshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,145
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

The rare Ferguson 103T is indeed a strange one. The turret tuner is positioned on the left of the cabinet with the volume/brightness/switch on the right. It is a very high gain model with flywheel sync. The I.F's are 16/19mc/s. I only encountered a few of these being based in Wimbledon in a strong signal area but many hundreds of the later excellent 204T series.
I think the 103T together with the rather poor performing English Electric T40 were the earliest employing actual turret tuning rather than permeability tuning used on the Bush series. The 103T series must sit mid way between 1954/55. John.
Heatercathodeshort is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 10:06 am   #3
Mr Hoover
Hexode
 
Mr Hoover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Faro, Portugal
Posts: 269
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Wasn't there the Pye VT2 as well,which was around very slightly earlier than the VT4
I believe.Presumably the same tuner as the VT4.

Hugh
Mr Hoover is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 10:40 am   #4
FERNSEH
Dekatron
 
FERNSEH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 7,444
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

The VT2 was a better set than the single channel V2 because the what was the oscillator-mixer valve became a common IF amplifer in the 13 channel receiver. I'll check out the IF frequencies in the V2 and VT2. If they are the same as the V4 and VT4 then it is likely the same type of incremental switch tuner was used.
I'm not sure which 13 channel came first on the marketplace, the VT2 or VT4.

DFWB.
FERNSEH is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 11:04 am   #5
'LIVEWIRE?'
Rest in Peace
 
'LIVEWIRE?''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton)
Posts: 7,306
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Didn't some of the early TVs have 14 channels? I bought a second-hand BUSH TV53(?correct model no?) in 1966 - it's long gone now, but I'm sure it had 14 channels, though I believe Ch. 14 was never actually used.
'LIVEWIRE?' is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 11:32 am   #6
FERNSEH
Dekatron
 
FERNSEH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 7,444
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

The EMI incremental switch tuner had 14 positions. It was fitted to the HMV 1824A through to the last models made by EMI in 1957.
The attachment shows an EMI tuner which was made as an add on conversion unit in certain BBC only HMV and Marconi TV receivers.

DFWB.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1824Atuner.jpg
Views:	198
Size:	45.3 KB
ID:	80273  
FERNSEH is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 12:28 pm   #7
Duke_Nukem
Octode
 
Duke_Nukem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

According to the trader service sheets, the Pye VT2 was released a couple of months before the VT4, so as far as I can tell the VT2 was the first production 13 channel set. There had been an agreement among the various manufacturers not to release any 13 channel sets until nearer the ITV launch, but C.O. Stanley didn't care.

TTFN,
Jon
Duke_Nukem is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 4:59 pm   #8
Mr Hoover
Hexode
 
Mr Hoover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Faro, Portugal
Posts: 269
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

There was an interesting editorial in a mid 1954 Practical TV magazine just before the Commercial TV Bill was passed by Parliament saying that if it wasn't approved plans were afoot via a Luxembourg based company for reception tests in the UK from transmitters on aircraft over North France/International Waters and if reliable signals could be had a service could start transmitting commercial TV into the UK via this method fairly quickly.

Those early band 3 sets would have come in handy for that!

Hugh

Last edited by Mr Hoover; 28th May 2013 at 5:10 pm.
Mr Hoover is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 5:40 pm   #9
colly0410
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 223
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

In the 50's/early 60's we had TV's that couldn't get ITV, (they had no band 3.) In the late 60's/early 70's we had TV's that couldn't get BBC2, (they had no 625 or UHF capability.) Did any other countries apart from France have these sort of problems?
colly0410 is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 6:03 pm   #10
FERNSEH
Dekatron
 
FERNSEH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 7,444
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

In pre-war Germany television operated on 180/25 non interlaced and 441/50 interlaced systems.
France used a 441 line system from 1946 to 1956. 819 lines from 1949 until 1983. When working properly 819 line pictures were stunning. All analogue TV systems in France had AM sound.
In the USA a 441/60 line system with AM sound operated until 1941. Replaced that year with the 525/60 system which has FM sound. Now replaced with DTT.
There was an experimental 567 line system in Holland.
Belgium operated a narrow bandwidth 819 line system, system F
There was some funny 625 line systems in Europe, e.g. system C.

DFWB.
FERNSEH is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 6:15 pm   #11
Mr Hoover
Hexode
 
Mr Hoover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Faro, Portugal
Posts: 269
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FERNSEH View Post
Belgium operated a narrow bandwidth 819 line system, system F
There was some funny 625 line systems in Europe, e.g. system C.
DFWB.
The Belgian system could switch line standards depending if incoming video was 625 from Europe or 819 from France self switching TV's existed which would detect the line frequency(article in PTV,mid 1963) and switch accordingly.They went 625 only (system C) sometime in the mid 60's

The Flemish Belgian service was system C only on Vhf till the mid 70's.

There was a modified French Uhf system for 819 line 1st network relays using +6.5 MHz AM sound.The Belgian 819 system used + 5.5 MHz (and Luxembourg
used it till the early 70's).

Veerry Confusing back then.

Hugh



Hugh

Last edited by Mr Hoover; 28th May 2013 at 6:40 pm.
Mr Hoover is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 6:43 pm   #12
P.Pilcher
Pentode
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lichfield, Staffs, UK.
Posts: 150
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

In 1954 as the youngest member of my family I learned that we were moving from London to the Midlands. We needed a new telly to replace our 12" Marconi and so an H.M.V 14" model 1824 was acquired. "We will need a new telly to receive broadcasts in the Midlands," I was informed. Said telly was installed, being fitted with a 14 channel tuner. This was set to channel 1 for Crystal Palace. Eventually the move was made and the tuner was clicked around to channel 4. Bingo! Sutton Coldfield came in on a set top aeriel. Of course the advantage of this was that when ITV started a year or so later, it was merely necessary to adjust the tuner to channel 8 and wind up the contrast to be amongst the first in the region able to watch ITV, transmitted from their Lichfield transmitter.
Subsequently I discovered that the model 1824 was fitted with permeability tuning for channels 1-5 but this was never used as the 14 channel unit was plugged into the chassis borne R.F. and mixer valve sockets. Apart from blowing its EY51 EHT rectifier every six months that model 1824 gave us nearly 6 years service before replacement - normal for sets in those days.

P.P.
__________________
"Ohm's law rules here" - Oxygen free speaker cable not required! (Quote: Quad Service lab)
P.Pilcher is offline  
Old 28th May 2013, 7:57 pm   #13
FERNSEH
Dekatron
 
FERNSEH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 7,444
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

HMV models 1824,1825, 1826, 1827 and 1829 were five channel BBC only receivers. Models with the suffix A were the 13 channel versions.

The 1824A series was available as standard and fringe versions. The latter had vision AGC.

DFWB.
FERNSEH is offline  
Old 31st May 2013, 10:58 pm   #14
winston_1
Hexode
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 497
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colly0410 View Post
In the 50's/early 60's we had TV's that couldn't get ITV, (they had no band 3.) In the late 60's/early 70's we had TV's that couldn't get BBC2, (they had no 625 or UHF capability.) Did any other countries apart from France have these sort of problems?
Several countries introduced UHF either for extra stations or for fill in relays and lots of their sets were VHF only.
winston_1 is offline  
Old 3rd Jun 2013, 10:43 pm   #15
thermionic
Heptode
 
thermionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 986
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Just dug out my Ferguson 103T and it is fitted with a 12 channel turret. Were these fitted with a 13 channel later in production?

With flywheel sync and push pull audio output, Ferguson were out to impress! Why is this model considered to be rare? Was it a short production run or have they simply been scrapped?

SimonT
__________________
The honesty of imperfection..........
thermionic is offline  
Old 4th Jun 2013, 8:34 am   #16
Heatercathodeshort
Dekatron
 
Heatercathodeshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,145
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Most Turret Tuners' had 12 positions that could accept clip in coils from any of the 13 channels plus VHF radio. Most had 'biscuits' as they were known fitted for a particular area, plus a few more.
The 13 channel tuners tend to be incremental types such as the Pye or continuously tunable such as the Bush TV24C.
The Ferguson 103T series [there were a number using basically the same chassis] were produced just after the original 900 series [991T/992T etc] in 1954. They were Ferguson's first proper band 3 models with tuners fitted as part of the design at the factory. Many had Flywheel sync and high gain I.F. amplifiers and were generally supplied to dealers in poor reception areas. A glance at the locations of guys seeking help from the 'Your Problems Solved' at the back of 'Practical Television' will confirm this.
The I.F. was 16/19mc/s as we generally named that frequency with the tuner on the left. Some console models had 'Halolight'.
They were replaced in 1955 by the 200 series that proved to be an excellent receiver series. Very reliable and a good performer and sold in huge quantities.
Few 100 series were seen in London compared with the 900 series with converters for ITV. I would guess you would have more chance of finding one in what was known as the old fringe areas. Good fun for a restoration..Regards, John.
Heatercathodeshort is offline  
Old 4th Jun 2013, 10:49 am   #17
FERNSEH
Dekatron
 
FERNSEH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 7,444
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

We shouldn't forget that GEC made a two band receiver in I'm sure in late 1954. A turret tuner was not used, instead GEC made their own three position unit which offered one Band 1 channel and two on Band three.
The tuner control was fitted on the right side of the cabinet.
The three position tuner was offered as a conversion unit for many BBC only GEC TV sets. Conversion unit BT304 comes to mind, this was a plinth assembly and the TV set was fixed on top of the unit. Later models from late 1955 used a twelve position turret tuner. It was a similar unit as found in Ferguson sets.

DFWB.
FERNSEH is offline  
Old 4th Jun 2013, 6:00 pm   #18
Heatercathodeshort
Dekatron
 
Heatercathodeshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,145
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Yes! Originally fitted to the BT1746 and worked very well with high gain and stability. I should have remembered that one David as GEC is one of my favourites. J.
Heatercathodeshort is offline  
Old 6th Jun 2013, 9:22 pm   #19
Synchrodyne
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Papamoa Beach, Bay of Plenty, New Zealand
Posts: 2,943
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

Did the first UK 13-channel receivers use the early “standard” front end valve line-up of PCC84 and PCF80 (or similar), or did the setmakers involved develop their own arrangements?

The PCC84 and PCF80 date from around mid-1953. Cyldon was advertising its TV.12 turret tuner with PCC84 and PCF80 by August, 1953, possibly earlier than that, although the TV.12 seems to have been export-oriented with its IF range of 40 to 47 MHz. In Wireless World, September 1953, though, Lasky’s was offering a surplus export TV tuner, US low and high bands coverage with 45 MHz IF, using 2 x 6AK5 and 1 x 6C4, which suggests that at least one of the UK makers had been active in this field quite early on, and one would infer, likely before PCC84 and PCF80 availability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colly0410 View Post
In the 50's/early 60's we had TV's that couldn't get ITV, (they had no band 3.) In the late 60's/early 70's we had TV's that couldn't get BBC2, (they had no 625 or UHF capability.) Did any other countries apart from France have these sort of problems?
I think not. In most cases the same or very similar standards were used for UHF transmissions as for VHF, so that when UHF arrived (often in the early-to-mid 1960s) VHF-only receivers could be adapted simply by using a UHF-to-VHF converter. Probably too, many VHF-only receivers built in the few years before UHF introduction would have had provision for the easy retrofitting of UHF tuners. In North America, 13-channel VHF tuners were used from 1946. The European situation I am not so sure about; there might have been some Band I-only receivers in the very early days. Certainly, Kerkhof and Werner described a CCIR (System B) receiver that included a Band I-only variable capacitance tuner, but noted that with an alternative tuner fitted, Band III coverage was available. I should guess though, that Band I-only receivers would have been but a miniscule proportion of the European population.

Belgium seems to have had the most complex situation. From the start (1953) though, it appears that four-standard receivers were commonplace, if not the norm. These covered Systems B, C, E and F, albeit with only one or two channels (including F8A) for the System E case. Thus the Belgian receiver makers had worked out how to cover two line standards (625 and 819), different bandwidths (E vs. B, C and F), and different modulation combinations (+ve vision, AM sound and –ve vision FM sound) about a decade before the UK makers had to do the same. When UHF arrived, System L capability was sometimes added to Belgian VHF-UHF receivers, Belgium itself using System H. Clearly, System L was beyond the reach of existing Belgian VHF-only receivers even when fitted with a UHF-to-VHF converter, so in that sense the situation was similar to that obtaining in the UK and France, that a new receiver was needed to enable reception of all available UHF transmissions, at least for those viewers adjacent to the French border. France of course eased dual-standard receiver complexity by choosing +ve vision, AM sound modulations for System L, making it the same as System E in respect of those parameters.

Cheers,
Synchrodyne is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2013, 12:01 am   #20
FERNSEH
Dekatron
 
FERNSEH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 7,444
Default Re: Earliest 13 channel TV sets.

The Cyldon type C tuner is almost mechanically identical to the American Standard Coil Corporation twelve channel unit. I discovered this when I needed parts for one of my Admiral TV sets. The Cyldon type C employed the usual PCC84 and PCF80 valves.

Another interesting early two band tuner is the "sliding turret" unit fitted in certain 1954/5 Ultra TV receivers. The models are the VT9-15, VT9-17 and WT9-17. The tuner was made in house by Ultra Radio and Television.
Later Ultra TV sets employed a two band tuner made by the company which used permeability tuning. Model V15-60 1956/7.
Like many other TV manufactures Ultra gave up making TV tuner units and bought in tuner units made by specialist firms such as Clydon.
With regard to the valves employed in UK made Band 1 and 3 tuners. I don't know of any model that used valves other than the usual PCC84/30L1 and PCF80/30C1.

DFWB.
FERNSEH is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 6:13 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.