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Old 6th Jan 2016, 2:17 am   #41
joebog1
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

quote:
It's very satisfying when you've led someone to the point where they suddenly realise that it's a lot more simple than the thought it was.
unquote!!

ALL you have done, David, is give them the right page to read!!
If someone is genuinely interested they will go and read "the text" or at least do some research, into their own understanding of the subject!!
Teaching is easy if the student is "applied"!!. Several posts here have mentioned that
" the enquirer should present some voltages they have measured, OR send a picture, OR post a circus diagram, sorry circuit diagram.
IF the enquirer can go this far, they really do have an interest in repairing, or understanding the "equipment" , if after securing a repair, and they dont thank anybody I send you this quandary!!.

For the last 30 years, the bank has been demanding answers in regard to your mortgage!! DID they EVER once thank you for the four times value of your property interest payments??
EVEN once ??
And we pay for that. The majority stay here, even if lurking, and a few even become talented techs! That in itself is good.

Joe
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Old 4th Apr 2016, 9:23 pm   #42
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Huggins View Post
What I find fascinating about all these topic areas is that a new enquirer will post a query on to the Forum, then earnest and well intentioned Members post their answers or make suggestions, other Members may then intervene with other interpretations - and after about 4 pages of a thread one finds that the original enquirer never gets back and the original enquiry is left in suspended animation........never knowing if the original problem was ever solved or if it was a serious enquiry in the first place. Edward.
Well after banging my head fruitlessly against the wall for the past few days and getting hardly anywhere I came across this thread and was wondering how the 'earnest and well intentioned members' feel when the OPs desperately post for help and are left in 'suspended animation'? As you probably know I am rather 'green' but the enthusiasm is certainly there. I am extremely courteous and always acknowledge my replies. I do, however, find it quite disheartening to ask for help (not post for discussion or chat) only to find an enormous amount of 'views' but very few genuine offers of help - don't get me wrong I am extremely grateful to be a member on here (and was hoping to be in for the long-haul, however this is now looking unlikely) and I am especially grateful for the few of you that have offered your advice and guidance - however I am miffed at the, what appears to be, 'you are not one of the boys' or ' we have helped you once now go away' attitude of some. Looking at the different threads I myself can see where some OPs questions have been answered helpfully, only for the OP to eagerly ask more questions to find the support has fizzled out or questions ignored. I hope members will reply honestly but think about the flip side of the start of this thread. Moderators please feel free to delete this post if you feel it is inappropriate or in breach of forum rules, although it is good to, I feel, share the thoughts and ideas from both sides - expert and novice.
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Old 4th Apr 2016, 9:53 pm   #43
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Sorry to hear that you're having problems. But don't give up! Persevere, and you'll get there. We were all new to this hobby once.

I genuinely do not feel that any of the negative views expressed in this thread are aimed at people like you.

I've noticed that you requested that one of your Grundig radio threads be closed or deleted. This seems a shame after going so far. Sometimes, advice isn't forthcoming simply because we don't know what to do next, not least because it's often impossible to help without being sat in front of the faulty set. Be patient. Sometimes, the magic reply comes in days, weeks or even months after a question was initially asked. Or sometimes the answer comes by itself, once you've had a few days away from the set to mull things over.

Quote:
... I am miffed at the, what appears to be, 'you are not one of the boys' or ' we have helped you once now go away' attitude of some.
There will inevitably be a bit of that on any forum, but I have to say that this one is definitely the friendliest I have found, and people with unhelpful attitudes tend to get shown the door by the Mods. Just turn a blind eye to those who aren't being helpful, and let the rest assist.

Nick

Last edited by Nickthedentist; 4th Apr 2016 at 10:02 pm.
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Old 4th Apr 2016, 10:30 pm   #44
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

The advice comes from people in their spare time, and sometimes they have to go off to do other things, so replies will inevitably be a bit erratic. Some people drop out as others drop in and then the first lot come back... It's jolly lucky we all seem to agree on everything ;-)

But you are certainly not in the sights for the criticism that's been bandied about on this thread... you aren't one of the peole who post once and vanish without trace... You're still here!

It makes a big difference to find out whether a bit of help really did the job. Some feedback helps people refine their techniques of giving help. And helps them feel that it's all worthwhile.

David
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Old 4th Apr 2016, 10:51 pm   #45
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Problem ( possibly well known to those of us who've been employed professionally to rectify problems) is that, as an old mate of mine said many tears ago, that in fault-finding,grass hopping is a virtue. But I've always found the divide by two principle works best, and in theory it should be possible to get to a fault in 8.
Example- cable of 2 miles length, with 100 yard test points. Test 1 shows cable has one /more of a pair open circuit. next test is done at 1 mile, and dependant on result, tester goes forward or back 1/2 mile. Next test gets fault to within 1/4 mile etc. That's on a circuit where the frequency is constant, such as an amp or record player. On radio, you have to work out the frequency expected. e.g. MW radio with 470 IF, it's simply look for any injected tone etc.
Not much, perhaps with a problem. but ,that's the basics of fault finding. The other basic, is work out how the circuit should work. Then work out what it's not doing, and then find out where it's not doing what it should. That is where knowing the theory of how it works comes in.
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Old 4th Apr 2016, 11:40 pm   #46
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

It's called the 'successive approximation' algorithm and is found in some analogue-to-digital converters.

There is a slightly smarter varsion where, instead of putting your first test right in the middle of the length of whatever is being diagnosed, you pick a point where th probability of the fault being before the test point, and the probability of it being after the test point are about equal. This gives you s slightly better chance of doing the deed in even fewer tries. It comes out of information theory and the difference between Fano and Huffmann coding schemes. Morse code plays a related game by having the shortest codes assigned to the most probable letters. If you're going to play dice, why not make sure they're weighted favourably first! It's amazing how things seem interlinked.

David
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Old 5th Apr 2016, 7:16 pm   #47
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Huggins View Post
…and after about 4 pages of a thread one finds that the original enquirer never gets back and the original enquiry is left in suspended animation…
I sometimes wonder if new members don't understand how internet forums work. I seem to remember the odd occasion where a poster has started a new thread because they can't find the previous one they started…
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Old 5th Apr 2016, 7:45 pm   #48
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

That happens very frequently here. If the mods spot it they merge the threads.
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Old 6th Apr 2016, 4:51 pm   #49
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the "stick" here poppy dog. Read a few more threads and you will see that some op's don't listen/don't understand or expect a completely personal tuition service with no apparent understanding of the relentless nature of the process and it's effect on others. That's not the same as getting help as a novice but it's hard to define exactly why I suppose, basically, it's about being appropriate socially and certainly nothing to do with any "clique" or two tier system which has never been an aspect of this supportive group. Overall it can been seen as part of a general decline in good manners and the current retro craze doesn't help either .As Nick says, anyone who has enough insight to ask do you mean me? is unlikely to be a suspect. Hang on in there
Dave W
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Old 7th Apr 2016, 10:34 pm   #50
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
It's called the 'successive approximation' algorithm and is found in some analogue-to-digital converters.
Never heard it called that before. However, since you're in Fife, I remember [sarcastic mode]working up there in a Radio factory, where one team leader used to do a lap of honour if he found a fault. [/sarcastic mode]
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Old 12th Apr 2016, 7:50 am   #51
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

poppydog, - been a member of this forum for 5 years ish, started as a complete novice with very little knowledge. A loytof what I've learnt in the subsequent years has been learnt on this forum and others. Some questions I've asked havn't been answered, but members are only human so lose interest, misunderstand or whatever. If your keen to learn, this forum is only one source of info, you have to work at it, which is difficult sometimes and can be frustrating.

I havn't seen or experienced any overt clickyness or felt pushed out, far from it, never had so much help and advice given before. Stick with us, it's worth it.

Andy.
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Old 12th Apr 2016, 8:44 am   #52
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

As a relative newbie, I haven't seen any of this reported behaviour. Clearly there are experts on here that are anxious to help when they can. However, sometimes it can be impossible to diagnose a problem at a distance, particularly when the fault report is not comprehensive. As someone else says, sometimes there is nobody who is expert on that particular device and others are loath to provide guesswork, which can be frustrating for the owner.

In general, I think the forum is a superb place to be for those interested in electronics and I have no complaints except for excessively strict moderation (in my opinion of course).
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Old 12th Apr 2016, 8:48 am   #53
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...the forum is a superb place to be for those interested in electronics and I have no complaints except for excessively strict moderation (in my opinion of course).
I thought the same too initially, but I can now see that it has to be like that for the forum to run smoothly and remain organised.

If it's any consolation, the moderation style is constantly evolving, and for the better IMHO

Nick.
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Old 12th Apr 2016, 11:47 am   #54
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Moderation policy is not open to general discussion for obvious reasons.

Like Beauty, Moderation is in the eye of the beholder. We aim to have a lasting "Archive" of knowledge that is relevant to our shared interest in Vintage Electronics. Everything else is peripheral or irrelevant. The "place for everything, and everything in it's place" strategy is an essential component in preventing threads drifting into forests of random information, which they inevitably do if unchecked. For all other subjects (and we all have other interests, including many shared ones) there are more relevant Forums, willing and eager to discuss anything else.

Please get back on topic to prevent the inevitable closure of this informative thread.
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Old 12th Apr 2016, 1:04 pm   #55
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Apologies, Bill.

Poppydog, have we restored your faith in us a little?

N.
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Old 12th Apr 2016, 9:50 pm   #56
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by glowinganode View Post
I believe Josh went off to University and is probably concentrating on the important things in life (cars, women and booze), and who could blame him.
Oh crumbs I have only just seen this thread I do still pop in from time to time and still tinker with electronics when I can. In fact I have completed a few projects recently which I will do write ups on soon

It's interesting reading me as an example for the good this forum can do and I must say I totally agree. Were it not for the help and patience of forum members I would still be as clueless as I was when I joined up at the age of 13 and didn't know what a capacitor was. Sadly because of the cars, women and booze I haven't spent quite as much time as I would have liked learning more of the theory side over the past few years so I still post the odd silly question from time to time but people are still always willing to help. I must admit I have left threads hanging when I have ended up out of my depth with the suggestions being offered but the sets are still here and it is my intention to return to them when I understand their faults better. In my opinion it is all down to attitude really- some asking for help go about it the wrong way and may be expecting an instant quick fix, but likewise I have seen people responding to queries in a condescending manner. The problem is we are all people, and as always in life personalities will clash, some people will drift away but at the end of the day we all share a common interest and together have created this fantastic resource which has taught me nearly all I know when it comes to messing about with antiquated electronics. Passing on knowledge to the next generation is one of the most important duties we have in life and for me it is something this forum excels at.
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Old 12th Apr 2016, 10:47 pm   #57
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

Well said Josh. I sent you a McMichael set once! Your life has been refreshingly normal and you understand core values. I liked your balanced comment but I think the self centred approach now well exceedes any condesension! You weren't like that at all Sir!
Dave
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Old 17th Apr 2016, 10:36 pm   #58
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Default Re: Lost in Translation??!!

I thought I had better respond to the replies from my previous post (otherwise it will be pot - kettle - black etc.) but I will keep it as brief as I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickthedentist View Post
I genuinely do not feel that any of the negative views expressed in this thread are aimed at people like you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
But you are certainly not in the sights for the criticism that's been bandied about on this thread...
I never thought for one minute it was aimed at me personally (if I did I would be gone), however new members with limited knowledge like myself, are vilified.

I think I will leave it there for now as I'm not very diplomatic and I know I won't be able to hold my tongue (I don't want to get banned just yet!).

Thanks for the replies and kind words.

Regards
Poppydog
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