Best way to clean old vinyl records? - Page 3 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Bruce · 25th May 2020, 11:53 am

I'm interested to hear of people's negative experiences with Permostat. My own experience is slightly indirect, in as much as several years ago I purchased a job lot of records from a deceased estate, all of which had stickers indicating that they had been treated with Permostat. All played like new, wonderful sound, and there was no residue left on the stylus.

I was utterly amazed at the quality of these old records and have hitherto attributed this to the Permostat and bemoaned the fact it is no-longer available........ However, perhaps the like new nature of these records was less due to the Permostat than to the fact that the gentleman concerned had transferred his collection to tape and the actual records were in fact almost new.

I would be interested to hear if anyone has positive experiences of Permostat.

Bruce

ajgriff · 26th May 2020, 5:39 pm

As promised I've posted some more detailed information about my DIY record cleaning machine here:

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...90#post1252390

Hope it's of some interest.

Alan

ToneArm · 27th May 2020, 7:29 am

I'm a long-time user of Permostat. But it is not a cleaning solution, just an antistatic treatment. It needs to be applied to clean records only, and then very little is required. Otherwise all the debris still in the record grooves is released from static charge and ends up on the stylus.

Why I use it is because once treated the records tend to stay clean. I won't say for ever, but in the main it seems treated records will not need cleaning again.

It has been a part of my record care routine for about 30 years now, and i'm often puzzled when I hear of other user's bad experiences with the product. I can only assume they used it incorrectly.

Cheers
Glyn

Craig Sawyers · 27th May 2020, 3:19 pm

Hang on. As a guy who ran engineering at Wharfedale and Oxford Instruments, and was international project manager for an instrument currently en route to Mercury, I think you can assume that I did not use Permostat incorrectly - it is not rocket science.

Looking back, this is not the first time you've banged the Permostat drum.

In fairness, they might have changed the formulation since I used it when it was first introduced in the mid to late 70's. And at that stage it most definitely left a gooey deposit. Fortunately it is soluble in record cleaning fluids.

Craig

Ted Kendall · 27th May 2020, 3:46 pm

I wonder how closely this stuff is related to the fluid applied by the Watts Parastat - Ivan March of the Long Playing Record Library was a strong advocate of the treatment, claiming that the film thus applied increased the service life of library discs considerably, whilst conceding in the late 60s that it may give problems with the lighter weight pickups then coming into use.

ToneArm · 27th May 2020, 7:38 pm

No disrespect intended, Craig. I was intending my comment for Bruce to be honest.

As I said it is part of my record care regime and I'm merely sharing my experience. Not banging a drum, for what is, after all, a long-discontinued and much-maligned product.

Ted, I think you might be talking about Last record preserver. i haven't tried it as it's quite pricey, but I have eyed it up and wondered the same thing as my stash of Permostat is dwindling!

Glyn

Ted Kendall · 27th May 2020, 8:02 pm

No, the Parastat is from an earlier era altogether - a product of Cecil Watts, and contemporaneous with the original Dust Bug. The device was intended to leave a microscopic deposit of the antistatic fluid on the entire grooved surface. It had quite a following until the general lightening of tracking forces and increasing labour costs caused it to fade away.

I'm firmly of the opinion that keeping the disc free of dust and static by dry methods is the best routine procedure, with a proper vacuum wash if the disc is badly contaminated. Shellac 78s are, of course, a different proposition.

JoshWard · 28th May 2020, 11:07 am

I'm surprised to hear all the love for the Knosti. I had one and cleaned several hundred LPs using it only to discover a significant amount of surface noise afterwards. I discovered that the supplied fluid left a nasty residue on the disc and it gummed up the stylus. I ditched that and instead went for a standard solution of ispropyl alcohol and distilled water. The gunk residue disappeared but I was still left with some surface noise. Investigation revealed that the brushes had lifted all the dirt from the grooves and left it all in a line (the brushes are vertical). Drying them vertically in the supplied drying rack only compounded the problem. I tried the 'two bath method' (rinsing each disc) but, whilst vastly improved, it did not resolve the problem completely.
In the end I built a vacuum record cleaner using the plans for the Moth machine. I constructed it from scraps of MDF, a cheap Tesco vacuum and an old BSR platter. Total cost was about £10 and it did the job brilliantly.

Ted Kendall · 28th May 2020, 11:20 am

Just underlines the point - if you get an LP wet, either play it wet ever after to keep the mud in suspension, or dry it by suction.

Edward Huggins · 28th May 2020, 1:48 pm

Well I've said it before, and will say it again, one of the most invasive and effective ways of cleaning a vinyl groove is the stylus. Costs you nothing. Then throughly clean the stylus afterwards. One could, of course, start another Thread on how best to clean a stylus....

Kentode · 28th May 2020, 3:46 pm

As l said in post #4 , "a can of worms"...

ajgriff · 28th May 2020, 5:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

Well I've said it before, and will say it again, one of the most invasive and effective ways of cleaning a vinyl groove is the stylus. Costs you nothing. Then throughly clean the stylus afterwards. One could, of course, start another Thread on how best to clean a stylus....

Agreed that the stylus cleans out the grime. However, regardless of the method used, cleaning a stylus is an inherently risky business and potentially a very expensive one. On balance I'll stick to cleaning dirty vinyl before the stylus becomes involved.

I should add that I do clean my Denon's stylus occasionally but prefer to keep the frequency to a minimum.

Alan

barretter · 28th May 2020, 6:41 pm

There is a very safe way of cleaning a stylus which involves lowering it into a solid gel which clings onto the dirt when you subsequently raise the the stylus out of it. It's not particularly cheap but not massively expensive either ; but I wouldn't play an LP without cleaning it first because (a) the buildup of dirt might be so massive that the stylus comes out of the groove and skates across the record giving you a nice scratch, and (b) there is a great danger of embedding bits of grit in the groove walls where you don't want them.

ajgriff · 28th May 2020, 7:24 pm

I guess we're talking about the Onzow Zerodust here. Not totally convinced about safety nor its ability to remove anything other than dust/fluff to be honest. Don't care for the price tag much either. Think I'll sit on the fence for now and carry on cleaning the vinyl.

Alan

AC/HL · 28th May 2020, 9:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentode

As l said in post #4 , "a can of worms"...

The word "Best" may be the problem. Everyone has a favourite they're comfortable with. Best can mean many things, up to and including the no compromise ultimate.

barretter · 28th May 2020, 10:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajgriff

I guess we're talking about the Onzow Zerodust here. Not totally convinced about safety nor its ability to remove anything other than dust/fluff to be honest. Don't care for the price tag much either. Think I'll sit on the fence for now and carry on cleaning the vinyl.

Alan

Yes, that's what I meant. Does a good job. You would have to be very clumsy to use it unsafely. As I said I wouldn't now play LPs without cleaning them first. I use an ultrasonic bath. I think the notion of using the stylus as a record cleaner was first aired by Roy Gandy. It's a silly idea.

Ted Kendall · 28th May 2020, 10:47 pm

Judging by the cantilever deflection on one of the YouTube videos, I'd say it would pull my ADC26 cantilever right out of its mount. Not for me.

DonaldStott · 28th May 2020, 11:23 pm

I posted earlier that I have a Record Cleaning Machine (RCM) to clean my vinyl but would add that I also use a dust buster of the solid gel type mentioned by barretter above to regularly clean my stylus. The one I use is cheaper than Onzow Zerodust but other similar products are available.

We're slightly drifting off-topic (?) but I would not encourage any wet-cleaning of your stylus as osmosis of fluid has been implicated in the corrosion of some aluminium tube cantilevers.

To pick up on the point made by AC/HL it may not be the "Best" approach but it is the one I favour and which lies within my budget - interesting Thread though!

Richard_FM · 28th May 2020, 11:46 pm

I remember my Dad saying it was possible to get a fine fibred brush that could be fitted to a turntable so it would skin the surface of a record while it was playing.

As well as slowing down the playing slightly, this doesn't sound like a good idea as it could potentially drag a lot of sharp dust particles along the grooves.

Ted Kendall · 29th May 2020, 12:06 am

What, like a Dust Bug? It worked well enough, and was certainly better than leaving the groove uncleaned to take its chances. They fell out of fashion during the 1970s, when the comics started to turn their noses up at them. Tiefenbrun claimed they weren't needed on a Linn(!) and of course the sheep took up the cry. It is true that the stiff tracking brush could transmit groove-induced vibrations to the pickup, but at very low level. Indeed, low-compliance pickuos can put enough energy into the vinyl that it rattles around the disc and returns as delayed multiple echoes. Maybe this is part of the highly-prized sound of moving-coil pickups?

25th May 2020, 11:53 am	#41
Bruce Tetrode Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand. Posts: 85	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? I'm interested to hear of people's negative experiences with Permostat. My own experience is slightly indirect, in as much as several years ago I purchased a job lot of records from a deceased estate, all of which had stickers indicating that they had been treated with Permostat. All played like new, wonderful sound, and there was no residue left on the stylus. I was utterly amazed at the quality of these old records and have hitherto attributed this to the Permostat and bemoaned the fact it is no-longer available........ However, perhaps the like new nature of these records was less due to the Permostat than to the fact that the gentleman concerned had transferred his collection to tape and the actual records were in fact almost new. I would be interested to hear if anyone has positive experiences of Permostat. Bruce

26th May 2020, 5:39 pm	#42
ajgriff Nonode Join Date: May 2004 Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,587	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? As promised I've posted some more detailed information about my DIY record cleaning machine here: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...90#post1252390 Hope it's of some interest. Alan

27th May 2020, 7:29 am	#43
ToneArm Pentode Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Conwy, Clwyd, UK. Posts: 246	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? I'm a long-time user of Permostat. But it is not a cleaning solution, just an antistatic treatment. It needs to be applied to clean records only, and then very little is required. Otherwise all the debris still in the record grooves is released from static charge and ends up on the stylus. Why I use it is because once treated the records tend to stay clean. I won't say for ever, but in the main it seems treated records will not need cleaning again. It has been a part of my record care routine for about 30 years now, and i'm often puzzled when I hear of other user's bad experiences with the product. I can only assume they used it incorrectly. Cheers Glyn

27th May 2020, 3:19 pm	#44
Craig Sawyers Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 4,980	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? Hang on. As a guy who ran engineering at Wharfedale and Oxford Instruments, and was international project manager for an instrument currently en route to Mercury, I think you can assume that I did not use Permostat incorrectly - it is not rocket science. Looking back, this is not the first time you've banged the Permostat drum. In fairness, they might have changed the formulation since I used it when it was first introduced in the mid to late 70's. And at that stage it most definitely left a gooey deposit. Fortunately it is soluble in record cleaning fluids. Craig Last edited by Craig Sawyers; 27th May 2020 at 3:24 pm.

27th May 2020, 3:46 pm	#45
Ted Kendall Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 3,670	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? I wonder how closely this stuff is related to the fluid applied by the Watts Parastat - Ivan March of the Long Playing Record Library was a strong advocate of the treatment, claiming that the film thus applied increased the service life of library discs considerably, whilst conceding in the late 60s that it may give problems with the lighter weight pickups then coming into use.

27th May 2020, 7:38 pm	#46
ToneArm Pentode Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Conwy, Clwyd, UK. Posts: 246	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? No disrespect intended, Craig. I was intending my comment for Bruce to be honest. As I said it is part of my record care regime and I'm merely sharing my experience. Not banging a drum, for what is, after all, a long-discontinued and much-maligned product. Ted, I think you might be talking about Last record preserver. i haven't tried it as it's quite pricey, but I have eyed it up and wondered the same thing as my stash of Permostat is dwindling! Glyn

27th May 2020, 8:02 pm	#47
Ted Kendall Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 3,670	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? No, the Parastat is from an earlier era altogether - a product of Cecil Watts, and contemporaneous with the original Dust Bug. The device was intended to leave a microscopic deposit of the antistatic fluid on the entire grooved surface. It had quite a following until the general lightening of tracking forces and increasing labour costs caused it to fade away. I'm firmly of the opinion that keeping the disc free of dust and static by dry methods is the best routine procedure, with a proper vacuum wash if the disc is badly contaminated. Shellac 78s are, of course, a different proposition.

28th May 2020, 11:07 am	#48
JoshWard Octode Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Near Stowmarket, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 1,962	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? I'm surprised to hear all the love for the Knosti. I had one and cleaned several hundred LPs using it only to discover a significant amount of surface noise afterwards. I discovered that the supplied fluid left a nasty residue on the disc and it gummed up the stylus. I ditched that and instead went for a standard solution of ispropyl alcohol and distilled water. The gunk residue disappeared but I was still left with some surface noise. Investigation revealed that the brushes had lifted all the dirt from the grooves and left it all in a line (the brushes are vertical). Drying them vertically in the supplied drying rack only compounded the problem. I tried the 'two bath method' (rinsing each disc) but, whilst vastly improved, it did not resolve the problem completely. In the end I built a vacuum record cleaner using the plans for the Moth machine. I constructed it from scraps of MDF, a cheap Tesco vacuum and an old BSR platter. Total cost was about £10 and it did the job brilliantly.

28th May 2020, 11:20 am	#49
Ted Kendall Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 3,670	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? Just underlines the point - if you get an LP wet, either play it wet ever after to keep the mud in suspension, or dry it by suction.

28th May 2020, 1:48 pm	#50
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,327	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? Well I've said it before, and will say it again, one of the most invasive and effective ways of cleaning a vinyl groove is the stylus. Costs you nothing. Then throughly clean the stylus afterwards. One could, of course, start another Thread on how best to clean a stylus.... __________________ Edward.

28th May 2020, 3:46 pm	#51
Kentode Octode Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Yorkshire, England. Posts: 1,301	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? As l said in post #4 , "a can of worms"... __________________ Regards, Ken. BVWS member

28th May 2020, 6:41 pm	#53
barretter Heptode Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Todmorden, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 870	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? There is a very safe way of cleaning a stylus which involves lowering it into a solid gel which clings onto the dirt when you subsequently raise the the stylus out of it. It's not particularly cheap but not massively expensive either ; but I wouldn't play an LP without cleaning it first because (a) the buildup of dirt might be so massive that the stylus comes out of the groove and skates across the record giving you a nice scratch, and (b) there is a great danger of embedding bits of grit in the groove walls where you don't want them.

28th May 2020, 7:24 pm	#54
ajgriff Nonode Join Date: May 2004 Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,587	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? I guess we're talking about the Onzow Zerodust here. Not totally convinced about safety nor its ability to remove anything other than dust/fluff to be honest. Don't care for the price tag much either. Think I'll sit on the fence for now and carry on cleaning the vinyl. Alan

28th May 2020, 10:47 pm	#57
Ted Kendall Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 3,670	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? Judging by the cantilever deflection on one of the YouTube videos, I'd say it would pull my ADC26 cantilever right out of its mount. Not for me.

28th May 2020, 11:23 pm	#58
DonaldStott Octode Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Glasgow, UK. Posts: 1,842	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? I posted earlier that I have a Record Cleaning Machine (RCM) to clean my vinyl but would add that I also use a dust buster of the solid gel type mentioned by barretter above to regularly clean my stylus. The one I use is cheaper than Onzow Zerodust but other similar products are available. We're slightly drifting off-topic (?) but I would not encourage any wet-cleaning of your stylus as osmosis of fluid has been implicated in the corrosion of some aluminium tube cantilevers. To pick up on the point made by AC/HL it may not be the "Best" approach but it is the one I favour and which lies within my budget - interesting Thread though! __________________ BVWS Member

28th May 2020, 11:46 pm	#59
Richard_FM Nonode Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Posts: 2,002	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? I remember my Dad saying it was possible to get a fine fibred brush that could be fitted to a turntable so it would skin the surface of a record while it was playing. As well as slowing down the playing slightly, this doesn't sound like a good idea as it could potentially drag a lot of sharp dust particles along the grooves. __________________ Hello IT: Have you Tried Turning It Off & On Again?

29th May 2020, 12:06 am	#60
Ted Kendall Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 3,670	Re: Best way to clean old vinyl records? What, like a Dust Bug? It worked well enough, and was certainly better than leaving the groove uncleaned to take its chances. They fell out of fashion during the 1970s, when the comics started to turn their noses up at them. Tiefenbrun claimed they weren't needed on a Linn(!) and of course the sheep took up the cry. It is true that the stiff tracking brush could transmit groove-induced vibrations to the pickup, but at very low level. Indeed, low-compliance pickuos can put enough energy into the vinyl that it rattles around the disc and returns as delayed multiple echoes. Maybe this is part of the highly-prized sound of moving-coil pickups?