M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

dave walsh · 26th Dec 2018, 7:17 pm

I thought these were 16mm films

but either way, they were found at an abandoned cinema in Africa. I've probably seen enough of these guys over the years but archive finds are fascinating to me along with the colour restoration process. Overall a 4H DVD recording from 6-25pm onwards will be a good catch.

Dave

paulsherwin · 26th Dec 2018, 7:35 pm

They were indeed found on 16mm B&W telecine. They have undergone considerable digital processing for broadcasting, including colourisation.

There is some image tearing, which suggests they are not 'official' telecine.

stevehertz · 26th Dec 2018, 8:06 pm

I think I'll probably watch it but I have mixed feelings about M&W. At their best (only too rare for me) they're very funny, but more often than not they're corny, dated (music hall style) and predictable. Not that I dislike vintage humour, Dad's Army is side splitting, as is Faulty Towers. I suppose we're all different when it comes to humour?!

paulsherwin · 26th Dec 2018, 8:19 pm

M&W came from the music hall tradition, which dominated TV light entertainment until the 80s, particularly on the BBC where Billy Cotton was a huge influence. The Young Ones sitcom still had to have a musical 'interlude' in the middle of every episode, under rules going back to ITMA.

chriswood1900 · 26th Dec 2018, 10:38 pm

Just watched and enjoyed them, they were obviously dated in style but harked back as an earlier post said to the music hall tradition. Lets hope they keep finding them!

Colourstar · 26th Dec 2018, 11:06 pm

A remarkable recovery, particularly given the raw state of the 16mm prints we saw. The technical expertise involved in the restoration really is astoundingly good. To turn transform damaged 16mm b&w film into pristine 'video look' is miraculous enough but the sorcery involved in 'chroma dot recovery' to restore the original colour is something else again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

There is some image tearing, which suggests they are not 'official' telecine.

Not sure about image tearing (I've only seen the first show); there was some flaring on bright highlights but it looked typical of the 'comet tails' that were associated with colour camera tube technology of the time. As far as I know (or at least from what I've read) the telerecordings were official BBC Enterprises prints.

Anyway, really great to see this material.

Steve

Ted Kendall · 26th Dec 2018, 11:38 pm

As far as the restoration is concerned, hats off all round - not just the technical chops, but the sheer man-hours. If the soundtrack really was com-opt, the results are truly remarkable. Slight changes of hue on fast movement and a slightly soft and pale cast to the whole are the only really noticeable giveaways.

In terms of entertainment, a mixed bag - the two-handers between Eric and Ernie are much as one would expect from the Braben shows, but the Hills and Green sketches have not aged well, and neither have their performances. In fact, I fancy I see the principals struggling manfully with material they know to be duff - but of course hindsight knows no myopia. Nice musical items, though.

It's interesting how a show evolves from good to great - the fourth series of The Goon Show sounds pedestrian by comparison with the fifth. The actual changes don't seem that great on paper - the orchestra is reduced in size, Bluebottle and Henry Crun acquire deeper voices and Eric Sykes joins the scriptwriting team - but the difference is almost night and day.

Similarly, chance nudged Morecambe and Wise into the stratosphere of popularity after this series. Eric Morecambe suffered his first heart attack, which caused Hills and Green to write the partnership off and seek work elsewhere. Their unavailability created the opening for Eddie Braben. Also, since the strain on Morecambe had to be reduced, the BBC doubled the time allocated for each show to two weeks' rehearsal and two days on the studio floor. This was an investment which paid off handsomely. I'm tempted to think that, had they stayed with the BBC, they might have lasted longer.

dave walsh · 27th Dec 2018, 1:13 am

That's really interesting info Ted. I'm very ambivalent re M+W and I always wondered why there was an apparent ongoing demand for very aged stuff-the Morecambe/Preview "right notes but not necessarily in the right order" sketch being a good but relatively rare example. Paul Sherwin's comment about Billy Cotton [senior] and maybe junior explains a lot. The generally behind the curve BBC likes bland-it's so safe and never more so than now!

Nile Rodgers who played with Bowie/Iggy Pop etc is now their "go to" safe rock musician. He's a nice guy and a great light soul musician but as with Gregory Porter and Courtney Pine etc, there's no real edge [like M+W]. He turns up absolutely everywhere but at least the older guys have an excuse. Sadly it's all about self deceit in the end-they perform well but it's disengaged! There's a book/Documentary to be made.

Dave

G8UWM-MildMartin · 27th Dec 2018, 3:11 am

The colour restoration was remarkably good. Remember, BBC1 didn't transmit colour until the end of 1969! Only slight flaring from highlights, possibly less than typical from 1968 tube cameras. The greens towards the end of the second episode may have been a little less saturated than originally, and the red coat in the first more so, but it was much better than NTSC to PAL conversions from many decades later, and people would have been watching the original broadcasts in black-and-white anyway.

paulsherwin · 27th Dec 2018, 11:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colourstar

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

There is some image tearing, which suggests they are not 'official' telecine.

Not sure about image tearing (I've only seen the first show); there was some flaring on bright highlights but it looked typical of the 'comet tails' that were associated with colour camera tube technology of the time. As far as I know (or at least from what I've read) the telerecordings were official BBC Enterprises prints.

I'm not sure what I saw now - you know how it is when you're watching TV at Christmas. I may be misremembering something from the bit about how the enhancement was done. Anyway, a very impressive job as others have said.

Ted Kendall · 27th Dec 2018, 11:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by G8UWM-MildMartin

people would have been watching the original broadcasts in black-and-white anyway.

I think the original transmissions were on BBC-2, so there would have been a small colour audience.

Colourstar · 27th Dec 2018, 11:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by G8UWM-MildMartin

Only slight flaring from highlights, possibly less than typical from 1968 tube cameras.

It would be interesting to know which studio at Television Centre was used (the sets looked small) and which cameras it was kitted out with. I should think at that time it could either be the EMI2001 or one of the Philips type (PC60?) or Marconi MkVII. Hopefully someone can tell us a bit more...

Steve

cheerfulcharlie · 27th Dec 2018, 1:10 pm

They were probably on a try out by the BBC hence the budget was limited at that time?

I think the EMI2001 finally appeared in 1969 after much messing about - the result was worth the wait as it enabled more natural looking make up to be used etc. So were probably Marconis?

Although the BBC had a set of PC60's I think the colour was a bit lush for BBC tastes and maybe were confined to pop music etc (eg.Cream-final concert). ATV liked them as they could be switched to NTSC and used them for good effect on The Tom Jones Show which was dual filmed in PAL/NTSC....and also their final series of Morcambe & Wise- which is also missing.

Richard_FM · 27th Dec 2018, 2:43 pm

What cameras were used for the 1968 Eurovision Song Contest?

The footage used in the 1992 documentary looks good if a little fuzzy, but that could be because it was a "down the line" recording because the BBC went & wiped their master IIRC.

hannahs radios · 27th Dec 2018, 4:02 pm

I watched the M and W shows last night. I was very impressed with the restoration job done on them if they hadn't said so at the start I wouldn't have known the original version wasn't color. I think that digital technology makes it a lot easier now, but I've still got to take my hat off to the engineers involved.

26th Dec 2018, 7:17 pm	#1
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm I thought these were 16mm films but either way, they were found at an abandoned cinema in Africa. I've probably seen enough of these guys over the years but archive finds are fascinating to me along with the colour restoration process. Overall a 4H DVD recording from 6-25pm onwards will be a good catch. Dave Last edited by dave walsh; 26th Dec 2018 at 7:31 pm.

26th Dec 2018, 7:35 pm	#2
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,970	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm They were indeed found on 16mm B&W telecine. They have undergone considerable digital processing for broadcasting, including colourisation. There is some image tearing, which suggests they are not 'official' telecine.

26th Dec 2018, 8:06 pm	#3
stevehertz Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 8,835	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm I think I'll probably watch it but I have mixed feelings about M&W. At their best (only too rare for me) they're very funny, but more often than not they're corny, dated (music hall style) and predictable. Not that I dislike vintage humour, Dad's Army is side splitting, as is Faulty Towers. I suppose we're all different when it comes to humour?! __________________ A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..

26th Dec 2018, 8:19 pm	#4
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,970	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm M&W came from the music hall tradition, which dominated TV light entertainment until the 80s, particularly on the BBC where Billy Cotton was a huge influence. The Young Ones sitcom still had to have a musical 'interlude' in the middle of every episode, under rules going back to ITMA.

26th Dec 2018, 10:38 pm	#5
chriswood1900 Octode Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dorridge, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 1,486	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm Just watched and enjoyed them, they were obviously dated in style but harked back as an earlier post said to the music hall tradition. Lets hope they keep finding them!

26th Dec 2018, 11:38 pm	#7
Ted Kendall Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 3,675	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm As far as the restoration is concerned, hats off all round - not just the technical chops, but the sheer man-hours. If the soundtrack really was com-opt, the results are truly remarkable. Slight changes of hue on fast movement and a slightly soft and pale cast to the whole are the only really noticeable giveaways. In terms of entertainment, a mixed bag - the two-handers between Eric and Ernie are much as one would expect from the Braben shows, but the Hills and Green sketches have not aged well, and neither have their performances. In fact, I fancy I see the principals struggling manfully with material they know to be duff - but of course hindsight knows no myopia. Nice musical items, though. It's interesting how a show evolves from good to great - the fourth series of The Goon Show sounds pedestrian by comparison with the fifth. The actual changes don't seem that great on paper - the orchestra is reduced in size, Bluebottle and Henry Crun acquire deeper voices and Eric Sykes joins the scriptwriting team - but the difference is almost night and day. Similarly, chance nudged Morecambe and Wise into the stratosphere of popularity after this series. Eric Morecambe suffered his first heart attack, which caused Hills and Green to write the partnership off and seek work elsewhere. Their unavailability created the opening for Eddie Braben. Also, since the strain on Morecambe had to be reduced, the BBC doubled the time allocated for each show to two weeks' rehearsal and two days on the studio floor. This was an investment which paid off handsomely. I'm tempted to think that, had they stayed with the BBC, they might have lasted longer.

27th Dec 2018, 1:13 am	#8
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm That's really interesting info Ted. I'm very ambivalent re M+W and I always wondered why there was an apparent ongoing demand for very aged stuff-the Morecambe/Preview "right notes but not necessarily in the right order" sketch being a good but relatively rare example. Paul Sherwin's comment about Billy Cotton [senior] and maybe junior explains a lot. The generally behind the curve BBC likes bland-it's so safe and never more so than now! Nile Rodgers who played with Bowie/Iggy Pop etc is now their "go to" safe rock musician. He's a nice guy and a great light soul musician but as with Gregory Porter and Courtney Pine etc, there's no real edge [like M+W]. He turns up absolutely everywhere but at least the older guys have an excuse. Sadly it's all about self deceit in the end-they perform well but it's disengaged! There's a book/Documentary to be made. Dave Last edited by dave walsh; 27th Dec 2018 at 1:34 am.

27th Dec 2018, 3:11 am	#9
G8UWM-MildMartin Heptode Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockport, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 827	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm The colour restoration was remarkably good. Remember, BBC1 didn't transmit colour until the end of 1969! Only slight flaring from highlights, possibly less than typical from 1968 tube cameras. The greens towards the end of the second episode may have been a little less saturated than originally, and the red coat in the first more so, but it was much better than NTSC to PAL conversions from many decades later, and people would have been watching the original broadcasts in black-and-white anyway.

27th Dec 2018, 1:10 pm	#13
cheerfulcharlie Heptode Join Date: May 2009 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 708	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm They were probably on a try out by the BBC hence the budget was limited at that time? I think the EMI2001 finally appeared in 1969 after much messing about - the result was worth the wait as it enabled more natural looking make up to be used etc. So were probably Marconis? Although the BBC had a set of PC60's I think the colour was a bit lush for BBC tastes and maybe were confined to pop music etc (eg.Cream-final concert). ATV liked them as they could be switched to NTSC and used them for good effect on The Tom Jones Show which was dual filmed in PAL/NTSC....and also their final series of Morcambe & Wise- which is also missing.

27th Dec 2018, 2:43 pm	#14
Richard_FM Nonode Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Posts: 2,004	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm What cameras were used for the 1968 Eurovision Song Contest? The footage used in the 1992 documentary looks good if a little fuzzy, but that could be because it was a "down the line" recording because the BBC went & wiped their master IIRC. __________________ Hello IT: Have you Tried Turning It Off & On Again?

27th Dec 2018, 4:02 pm	#15
hannahs radios Hexode Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Weymouth, Dorset, UK. Posts: 422	Re: M and Wise The Lost Tapes BBC2 8-30pm I watched the M and W shows last night. I was very impressed with the restoration job done on them if they hadn't said so at the start I wouldn't have known the original version wasn't color. I think that digital technology makes it a lot easier now, but I've still got to take my hat off to the engineers involved.