Death sentence?

[Lloyd 1985]

What's wrong with wanting to learn I was once the young idiot who knew nothing about electricity, and should have stayed away from dangerous vintage kit that will probably kill me... But I didn't, because I found it all fascinating!! Luckily for me, I had my Grandad (now sadly departed) who helped me understand stuff, he didn't just stand there and go 'ooh, it's dangerous, you have no experience, now leave it alone', he helped me understand, which is what people new to this hobby are trying to do. I also spent many years reading up on such things, including reading a lot off this forum, and I'm still learning. I can't go and do a TV repair course at college, as far as I know there isn't one, and if there is it'll probably cost a small fortune, therefore places like this forum are one of the best places to go for advice and to learn from others who do have the experience!

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I don't see how someone new to this hobby is given a death sentence. We all have to start somewhere!

Lloyd.

[AC/HL]

It is a worry that we might encourage someone to get out of their depth, but anyone determined to jump in will do that regardless, and probably already has. At least the ones who come here are willing to talk (if not always to listen!)

We all have a duty to try to assess the competence of new posters, who may or may not have an idea of it themselves, before offering advice that sometimes clearly goes right over their heads.

However, over caution could spoil one of our objectives, that of helping and encouraging enthusiasts to join us in our quest to defy time.

[dave walsh]

There's nothing wrong with a desire to learn Lloyd and you seem to have had a good experience with your Grandad. The comments here largely refer to how people sometimes go about seeking information these days and whether they DO have a desire to learn or just get a problem solved-there is a difference!

You might have a local club/college centre that would enable you to do the Radio Amateur Exam-that could help with the learning process!

Dave W

[Bazz4CQJ]

On first reading, the OP is quite daunting, but I think you then have to ask "what does the data tell us"? By this I mean, how many deaths does one hear of, and in my 50+ years of "ham radio" activity I've never known of any death arising from this hobby, though I guess there may have been a few. I suspect that everybody who has worked on valve sets (both amateurs and professionals) has had a few shocks, from both HT lines and even the mains, but it seems to be the case that we usually live to tell the tale.

Of course, we do have to be very cautious in offering advice to beginners, but we do need to maintain a realistic appraisal of the risks involved.

B

[FIXITNOW]

With the rise of sites showing videos or instructions of how to fix anything, everyone and their uncle thinks it easy to fix anything. I guess it started with change these bulging caps in your PC motherboard or LCD TV which did usually fix them and has ballooned to cover all products.

The amount of stuff I now pick up that has been got at and abandoned has risen considerably.

[Phil G4SPZ]

At present, anyone can register as a Forum user and post requests for technical advice in any section. The Elektrotanya site, for example, includes a short test consisting of a handful of basic electrical and electronics questions, which must be answered before a new registration is permitted.

I wonder if the Forum software would allow something similar here? Anyone declining or failing the technical test would be restricted to posting in the "Repair Services Wanted" section.

One thing I find from some posts is that people often profess to have more knowledge and skills than they really possess, and this only becomes apparent after several exchanges. The Forum offers a teaching/learing environment but currently imposes no requirement for evidence of prior knowledge. There does appear to be a growing attitude nowadays, fed by media reports, where people think they can achieve anything simply by being passionate about it and with no acknowledgement of the long hard slog that is usually involved.

[Martin Bush]

Hello all

This is an interesting thread and I think a view from someone like me might be worthwhile.

I have been fond of valve radios for as long as I can remember. Even though I grew up in the 80s, we always had a valve set or two thanks to my Dad who rescued them when they were quite unfashionable.

At Christmas I got a DAC90a, and got it restored professionally. It cost £150 and was/ is an excellent job. It now has pride of place in my living room.

I could have left it there but of course I got the bug. I respect the technology and want to understand how it works and, just as importantly, how I can play my part in keeping these radios alive. As there are no courses available in this field and, even if there were, I work full time and can't really take a career break my choice is either to entrust all work to others and never learn anything or try it myself.

That's how I landed here. I wanted to know whether learning myself was viable and I happened across a post on here asking the same question. That led to me getting a few pieces of kit and building a small kit radio.

I have learnt a great deal since I joined the forum and have great respect for the people on here. In fact I would say that coming on here has, if anything, slowed me down. I quickly found that there's a great deal to learn and knowing what you are doing BEFORE you even switch a radio on is the most valuable piece of advice I picked up in my early days.

I do often find the discussions on here beyond my understanding, but that is a good thing - it reminds me that I need to keep reading and get up to speed.

So, despite having been "restoring radios" since the start of the year I have done very little electrical work so far. I think that's as it should be, but I am also one of those rare people who enjoy slow progress rather than rapid success/ failure...

Martin

[mark pirate]

What's wrong with wanting to learn I was once the young idiot who knew nothing about electricity, and should have stayed away from dangerous vintage kit that will probably kill me... But I didn't, because I found it all fascinating!!

I too started the same way. Back in the 1970's there was no internet, so reading books and magazines was the main way to gain knowledge.
I basically taught myself how to repair faults, and have suffered many electric shocks along the way!

The main thing that seems to be a thing of the past is common sense, there are warnings not to remove back covers until the mains has been disconnected on equipment from over 80 years ago. But some do not heed the warning!

There is more information available than ever before, thanks to the internet.

This site has excellent information for beginners, sadly a lot of new members do not take the time to read and absorb it before posting.

[peter_scott]

This hobby is no different from many aspects of life. There are lots of ways to kill yourself and most people learn to respect hazards by having the odd close shave. I suspect that most people learning about electricity will receive quite a few non-lethal shocks just as most people learning to cross roads will have encountered situations that they mis-judged but were lucky.

You can warn people of hazards but you can't give them total protection if they are to participate in life.

Peter

[stevehertz]

One thing that posters seem to be missing is the blame culture we now live in. Thanks to a certain country nurturing the need to sue for any 'crime' as daft/crazy/mad as someone consuming too much fat (and blaming the restaurant) to people slipping on a banana skin in the street, the world isn't the same as it was thirty years ago. That was a world where people minded their own backs, looked out for potential problems and generally behaved more responsibly. It's all very well people talking 'gung-ho' fashion about the electric shocks they're experienced during their careers, how they're kinda a natural, integral part of the learning process and that in general no harm is done, and that getting 'stuck in' and learning is to be applauded.. but, one day someone is going to give well meant advice and in working on a live set, the 'pupil' may experience fatal electrocution. It's not beyond the realms of possibility, given the compensation culture world that we now live in that relatives may blame the 'teacher' and sue them. That's not pie in the sky, it's a real possibility! On American forums you'll often see posters (not just the forum web site) including a rider saying that only qualified electronics engineers should work on live apparatus - or words to that effect - thus exempting them from blame if an unqualified person decides to have a go and gets a belt. Sadly it's not a common sense world we live in any more, it's one of litigation, and we all have to aware of that, and act accordingly.

[Martin Bush]

That is true Steve. I can only speak for myself, but I come here for good advice and follow that up with some more reading and, if in doubt, I will leave whatever it is until I know what I am doing.

My other hobby, one that I do know quite a bit about, is cooking. I've burnt myself a fair few times and cut myself, but I've never blamed recipes or any other source of advice or inspiration.

Obviously the dangers associated with hot pans and sharp knives are well known and for that reason there is less of a blame culture. In fact when it comes to cooking, people are more likely to blame qualified professional cooks for giving them food poisoning than their own misadvantures in the kitchen.

Personally, I am far more careful when working on a radio than I am at the stove... but then a hot pan handle gives you more chance of excaping harm than the mains.

So, having said all that, I do see the value in this thread and am interested in what everyone is saying.

[Aerodyne]

Go back far enough and none of us knew a thing about radio. To say things along the lines of 'I wasn't trained as a mechanic and therefore I don't work on cars' is to miss the point entirely. If everyone said that, the world would be in a sorrier state than it is. What's the problem with wanting to know, to learn, to understand? That's why Haynes manuals were created...
How can anyone learn practical and technical skills except by doing?
At least the 'newbies' who arrive at this forum were intelligent enough to seek it out, so they can't be entirely brainless...
Stevehertz is right, however. Blame culture is rife now. As long as the forum makes it clear that electricity is dangerous - as is crossing the street if you don't look both ways - and that any new arrival should take the time to read and understand basic safety, I'm all for encouraging people to learn and enjoy. The alternative is that as a breed, we gradually will die out (and not through electric shocks).
Tony

[Phil G4SPZ]

Originally Posted by Martin Bush

...there are no courses available in this field...

Not 'courses' as such, but The Radiophile magazine organises regular teaching workshops on a Sunday. One took place only yesterday. Clearly these won't suit everyone due to travelling distance etc, but they do offer one-to-one tuition from experienced engineers in a safe and reassuring environment, and suit all levels of previous knowledge. People have even been taught how to solder.

I speak as a satisfied course member (many years ago) and more recently as a mentor. I am unaware of any similar offerings anywhere, which is a pity. I once tried to organise something along the same lines myself at a living museum, but the Health and Safety people quickly squashed the proposal along the lines of fear of litigation, as has already been mentioned.

[G4_Pete]

I retired from an industry where my company had 5 fatalities a year worldwide each one reported in detail to us. This often gave a sobering start to the day and with a target of Zero fatalities per year changed every aspect of approach to electricity.

One common factor is that on big new projects every care is taken, human instinct guides us to be cautious when faced with the unfamiliar. However it is the routine tasks that frustratingly kept the fatality statistics high. Forgetting to unplug a piece of gear on test, Changing a florescent tube live , having a loose live wire coming off and land on a hand , unbolting an earth strap on dead equipment only to find it was draining a small current down from 10 Kv are ones that spring to mind.

Instant dismissal for violation of electrical policy also focused the mind ,litigation as mentioned is also very real. A work colegue ended up in court after he burnt himself on an electrical arc. However the main point is that there are risks to everything and without an element of risk some things are not worth doing, I often jump fallen tree trunks on my horse , hardly sensible at my age but you asses the risk make sure the saddle is secure and you do it, hopefully to live another day.

So what will get me , probably slipping up on a proverbial banana skin, or in an unguarded moment putting my hand in something I have forgotten to switch off. But can I risk letting my son use my workshop?, after considering the legal risks mentioned above, probably not.

[Radio Wrangler]

Originally Posted by stevehertz

************ including a rider saying that only qualified electronics engineers should work on live apparatus - or words to that effect - thus exempting them from blame if an unqualified person decides to have a go and gets a belt. Sadly it's not a common sense world we live in any more, it's one of litigation, and we all have to aware of that, and act accordingly.

Not even qualified electronics engineers are allowed to work on live apparatus.

The electricity at work act says that work should not be carried out on live apparatus unless it is unavoidable and appropriate precautions are taken.

Like most laws it leaves things like 'unavoidable' and 'appropriate' open to interpretation. It does, however, expand a little on 'Live'. It says that no voltage is sufficiently low that it can be considered safe under all circumstances, and that what voltages may be worked on depend on the environment. That still doesn't get specific, but it pushes organisations into declaring what is safe in the sorts of environments they operate under.

The whole thing only applies to work activities, but would be used as a guideline if anything went wrong under amateur circumstances, and there would be people suggesting that greater care would be appropriate for unskilled, inexperienced people.

All these undefined things give a lot of loose ends for lawyers to work on.

We need to be careful, but we need to get the balance right. Too much would kill the hobby off.

A friend has a riding stables, and I've seen the progressive reduction in what they're prepared to teach. Ironcally it means most modern riders are less capable, and therefore LESS safe should the unexpected happen. Our hobby is not alone.

David

[dominicbeesley]

We are quite fortunate to live in a country where we haven't been completely legislated out of "playing" with dangerous things. We're still allowed to take things to pieces, put them back together and see what happens. Be it cars or electrical equipment. I have some sympathy for the aims to zero injuries at work though sometimes this is taken too far, or more often too simplistically.

I've had my fair share of accidents both in the electronic workshop and the car workshop but none has led to hospital until the other week - caused by some swarf getting in my eye...which had fallen off my safety goggles as I took them off.

I look forward to my 8 month old daughter being old enough to be introduced to all the fun of electronics, mechanics, fire and other fun activities...I just hope I don't get persecuted by worriers! I'm definitely of the opinion that children should be introduced to danger in a controlled, sensible manner as they grow up. There are too many young adults unable to judge dangers with any degree of experience having been over-protected until they are 18 and then suddenly let loose - often with an attitude that it must be safe or it wouldn't be allowed.

I got my first proper electric shock at about 13months when I found a lead with a plug attached and made a baby shaped hole in the plaster board on the other side of the room - not good! I got my first oscilloscope and soldering iron for a 5th birthday present from my next door neighbours! I shall definitely be more careful with our child, I don't want her harmed - nor do I want lots of burns and solder blobs in the carpet!

As to learning to do things without the proper ticket and training. It is one of the things that always made this country great - make do and mend and garden shed inventors, the spirit of the amateur. Long may it continue!

[Martin Bush]

Originally Posted by Phil G4SPZ

Not 'courses' as such, but The Radiophile magazine organises regular teaching workshops on a Sunday.

At the risk of appearing lazy, could I ask where I can find out about these sessions? I have heard of them, but not been able to spot them listed anywhere.

Sunday is not a good day for me, but in the interests of safety and learning I am sure I can get along to one.

[broadgage]

Whilst one should be cautious in handling dangerous voltages, and should encourage others to be cautious, it has to be said that servicing and repairing of vintage radios etc. does not seem to kill many people.
If seated on a wooden chair or standing on a wooden floor, working on equipment on a wooden table or bench, the risks are not great due to the lack of an earth path.
Still best to be cautious, but not unduly alarmist perhaps.

IMHO, large appliances such as washing machines or cookers, vintage or modern, are a greater risk due to the proximity of earthed metal.
An RCD is not a cure all, but does significantly reduce the risk at little expense.

The policies of some employers IMHO, go too far towards caution and are either ignored, or if followed induce a state of near paranoia as to the dangers of very low risk tasks.
The oft repeated statement that "no voltage is safe for live working" has led to serious enquiries as to the risks of inserting a 6 volt torch battery into a torch ! the terminals are ALLWAYS LIVE and cant be isolated.
This can be counter productive, after touching the live terminals of a 6 volt battery without perceptible result, some might start ignoring other warnings about live terminals.

[HamishBoxer]

The dates Martin are given in Radiophile magazine run by Chas E Miller.

[camtechman]

I suppose, based on the OP's concern for human safety, whilst to be applauded, my first experience with electricity at the age of 6 would have had me banished from, now at the age of 68, having had a most successful life in the electronics industry.

So what sin did I commit at the age of 6?

Well, I wondered if a sixpenny coin conducted electricity and so I removed the front guard from our two bar electric fire, switched it on and then, with coin in hand, touched one of the heating elements with it.

Yep, I found the answer to my question and also received a bump on the back of my head after being thrown backwards onto the kitchen sink.

Is there a moral in that or is that what human curiosity & development is all about ?..............(later experiments with making homemade gunpowder proved even more exciting !!!!!)