Death sentence?

[trickie_dickie]

Since joining this Forum many moons ago, I have been amazed at the number of people messing about with Vintage equipment loaded with lethal voltages. They have neither knowledge, experience or even tools of the trade (The latest doesn't even have a multimeter). I learned years ago that I'm not a Motor Mechanic - hence I don't work on cars. Neither do I know anything about Digital TV / Radio so I don't try fixing them. So why do people think they can work on things that they know nothing about?

[Station X]

I think they over estimate their knowledge and so do those of us who advise them.

Straight forward statements like "measure the voltage across R12" aren't understood and they probably can't find R12 in any case.

I remember one newbie being asked to measure DC voltages on the output transformer primary. He got strange readings we couldn't understand until we discovered he was measuring voltages on the mains transformer.

Another member said he never earthed anything unless it had a motor in it. He never did explain his thinking behind that.

[stevehertz]

Well, there's two ways of looking at it. Your way, where they simply shouldn't mess with electrical/electronic high voltage kit unless they are qualified (and I fully appreciate the points you make), or that in coming on to this forum, they will at least get good advice and warnings about the dangers of working on vintage radios. So at least the second option is better than them just diving in. I'm not strongly polarised towards either view.

I suspect that anyone, no matter how dim, must know that you can get an electric shock from a piece of electrical equipment. Similarly, in life you cannot stop individuals doing things that are dangerous, at the end of the day it's up to them if they want to live dangerously. And yes, dangerous it is working on a vintage wireless set.

[Restoration73]

I don't think you will find posters are irresponsible enough to progress to repairs etc
without guidance and/or technical information. As someone who educated and trained
future and practising service engineers, perhaps you would like to suggest why no such
training now exists ? It is because most of the population do not wish to engage or
pay for the services of engineers with recognised professional qualifications. (We are
even seeing this in the medical and legal professions today)
Tony

[trickie_dickie]

It worries me, quite a lot, really. Someone is going to die and whoever is advising him/her could have it on their conscience. I certainly would not like to be in either position.

[Station X]

Originally Posted by stevehertz

they will at least get good advice and warnings about the dangers of working on vintage radios

The trouble is that unless advice is given at a very low and concise level it's likely to be misunderstood. How often have you read "Set the meter to... connect red lead of meter to......"?

Apart from that there's no way of knowing whether someone's actually done what they've been asked to do.

Pictures of meter readings being taken often show the meter incorrectly connected and set to the wrong range. Attempting to measure voltage using a current range is a good one!

I don't try to discourage people from trying to fix stuff though, as many a thread with 100 plus posts demonstrates.

[trickie_dickie]

I agree, Tony. Everything, it seems, is made in China these days at prices so cheap that the goods are regarded as throw away items. I have a mechanical auto winding Watch in for repairs at the moment. It cost £15 twenty odd years ago and will cost me £90 when I get it back. I gave up TV repairs long ago. Even the last TV / Audio shop I worked for has gone.

[electrogram]

Well at least if they are determined to have a go they have come to the right place here. Someone who needs a meter will be advised to obtain a meter. Undoubtedly tinkering with old electrical items is more dangerous than many activities such as crocheting (boredom apart). You could say you can't do something because you've never done it but then we would never do anything.

[paulsherwin]

While not wanting to seem cavalier about safety, it is extremely unlikely that even the most clueless beginner would manage to kill themselves while working on vintage radios or record players. They may do considerable damage and receive electric shocks, but the shocks won't be fatal unless they are incredibly unlucky as well as inept.

Vintage televisions are a different matter, but these are usually too daunting for beginners to tackle.

Clueless idiots will experiment with old electronics whether this forum exists or not. If they come here at least there's the probability that they'll receive good safety advice, though there's no guarantee that they'll take any notice of course.

[Radio Wrangler]

The difficult bit when someone new pops up is trying to assess what level of understanding they have so that any help can be pitched appropriately.

As a kid I had no mentor, just a subscription to a couple of magazines and I had to make it all up as I went along. I got interested in building oscilloscopes, and that meant mains-derived EHT. Somehow I survived.

Nowadays, I design gear which forms part of air traffic control and automatic anti-collision systems for aircraft. Things have to be done right and positively proven to be right. It makes you rather careful.

If someone did get hurt after advice from on here (And I phrased that meaning at a later time, not necessarily meaning as a consequence of) The pain to someone's conscience is one thing, but nowadays one must expect a feeding frenzy of lawyers to get involved (Ooh, look, an new collective noun!).

David

[ms660]

Make of it what you will:

http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...ch/statistics/

Lawrence.

[HamishBoxer]

Simple common sense suggestion for all, work with one hand behind your back and use an isolation transformer. If you don't know what that is then leave the back on the set and let those who know what they are doing deal with it.

[dseymo1]

While I take the point made here, surely the enquirer (and for that matter any of us in a similar position) has a responsibility to make it clear if they don't understand the advice given.
My approach to most things in life is to gain a working knowledge, then have a go. Many things are easier than they are made out to be, and practice makes perfect.
The forum has clear warnings about the potential dangers of working on electrical and elecronic equipment, and visitors have ample opportunity to familiarise themselves with these, and to make a realistic assessment of their own undrstanding and ability, asking advice if appropriate.
One can't act as nursemaid to all and sundry; we each have to take responsibility for our own actons.
Just my view!

[trickie_dickie]

A very good view. Maybe it or something similar should be quoted politely to every new post seeking help.

[kellys_eye]

One may hope that those using this forum for advice would have at least a modicum of common sense and, given that the hobby tends to attract 'older' people then the common sense factor may just be more prevalent than is found in many of the younger generation?

I understand this attitude maybe 'ageist' but if my own experience of the younger generation is anything to go by.....

[Peter.N.]

While I agree with the need for caution, I was a TV engineer for 50 years, starting in the days of mains EHT which would kill you, but after the arrival of flyback EHT although it could give you a nasty sting I have never known it to kill anyone, unless possibly they have a health problem.

Working on valve TVs shocks were almost inevitable generally on a daily basis, I must have had thousands and although they can hurt in most cases you would recover the screwdriver you threw across the room and continue with the repair.

Generally contact with the offending live part only occurred momentarily and with one hand, the hasty withdrawal of the hand usually caused more damage than the shock itself as there was usually a sharp projecting bracket that would take the skin off the back of your hand or arm.

I don't think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would poke about in something live that they didn't understand but the chances of getting a shock even from a valve radio are always there if you are working on a live set which is really the only way you can effectively fault find. Providing this is only to one hand and you are standing on some sort of insulating material, a dry carpet is generally enough, you won't come to much harm, unless of course you suffer from heart problems then its better not to take the risk.

Peter

[McMurdo]

I'd hope that if someone here says something like 'check the voltage at the rectifier' and the answer is 'where do I find the rectifier and what does it look like?' then it should dawn on the benighted fellow that they are already out of their depth and should go no further!

It's today's culture that the internet must have the answer for everything (just ask a GP) and it's the same in the repair trade. I often get complex, surface mount boards that have been ripped to shreds by a heavy hand because the owner had seen it repaired on youtube or similar but had found out the hard way that pro's make it look easy!

[dave walsh]

I'd like to gently suggest that some posters may have difficulties in communicating, personality issues or similar. This seems to me, to be evidenced by extreme persistence in the face of common sense guidance which they seem unable to take on board. It does not help, as was said earlier, simply to hand out technical advice on the assumption that it will be understood. It's a difficult problem for everyone-especially the Mods but seems to be on the increase.

In a way it's all really about awareness, social skills and what's appropriate when engaging with others and what is not! I don't think it will help to start worrying about all possible disasters. The disclaimers and warnings on here both official and within the threads are clear enough for any purpose. Unfortunately there is an immature attitude running through society in general and people compete with each other to live up to it. An accident can happen to anyone [examples re individuals have been given here] but that not quite the same as something that results from ignorance combined with stupidity [in my humble opinion]. I think people may be getting interested in "retro" kit now and have a blind faith that they can sort it somehow or that someone can do it for them without really working at it

This is a very welcoming enviroment, in general but you do wonder where some people are coming from. If you don't know anything at all, reading around is an obvious good place to start that they appear to ignore or not to have even considered. Expecting free individual tuition [ongoing] is not at all reasonable. I was on this forum for at least a year before I posted anything and certainly wasn't here to have my personal needs met. If this seems harsh-well at least it's not exploitative. It's possible to be too helpfull sometimes in my view but that is not intended to be a criticism of any of the great people who very genuinely offer all kinds of assistance to others .

Dave W

[Radio Wrangler]

On some of the other groups, a regular problem is students looking for free 1 on 1 tuition and people to write their essays for them.

The idea of reading up on things seems to be dying and just at the time a lot of information becomes available without interlibrary loans.

David

[paulsherwin]

The fashion for old record players has caused a big increase in the number of relatively unskilled people trying to work with valve electronics during the last couple of years. Some of these clearly have no aptitude at all, and indeed aren't really interested in the engineering side of things.