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Old 4th Dec 2018, 3:52 pm   #1
stevehertz
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Default Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

I have never used a separate phono stage and I've never used a separate DAC. All my hifi, vintage or otherwise is of the 'inclusive with tone controls' type and that's the way I want it. Saying that, I have receivers, tuners and amps, and I have Quad pre and power amp separates. I also have a graphic EQ, though not hooked up at the moment.

Ok, it enables one to pick and mix but I don't necessarily 'buy' that it makes much difference to the sound when compared to high end amps that include phono stages and CD players with DACs.

What about you, and why? Do you think there is any real, truly audible benefit to separate phono stages and DACs?
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 3:57 pm   #2
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

No manufacturer makes the best of everything so I value being able to mix and match as I see fit. As an example, one piece of advice was Jap amp, Brit speakers or Vicky Verki (whoever she is). A "music centre" type system is generally the cheapest of everything in one box and no opportunity to upgrade parts when funds allow. Separate DAC etc, I am not so sure about, but I would say that the same logic applies.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 4:04 pm   #3
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

My phono preamp is separate because it is DIY. It was convenient to build it separate from the power amp (also DIY). The preamp uses opamps; the power amp uses valves.

There may be some technical advantage in keeping high power stages (and their PSU) well away from small signal stages. Putting them in the same box creates problems, but these can be solved.

The idea of the separate DAC is that the digital stages of a CD player are near enough perfect at extracting data from the disc; the DAC section may or may not be compromised by price and market concerns, so an outboard DAC may offer improvement - and it certainly brings bragging rights!

The thing to really avoid is the flimsy turntable perched on top of a one box 'hi-fi'. Such things are rarely even close to being hi-fi.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 5:25 pm   #4
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

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Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
Ok, it enables one to pick and mix but I don't necessarily 'buy' that it makes much difference to the sound when compared to high end amps that include phono stages and CD players with DACs.
I don't think I understand the question, I thought all amps had a phono input, and all CD players had a DAC.
Are you comparing a "music centre" to hifi separates.

Mike
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 5:49 pm   #5
paulsherwin
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

All CD players have a DAC, but some DACs are better than others (though there's plenty of the usual snake oil about).

Most low and mid market integrated amps lost their mag cartridge inputs after 1990 as vinyl fell out of fashion.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 5:56 pm   #6
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

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Originally Posted by crackle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
Ok, it enables one to pick and mix but I don't necessarily 'buy' that it makes much difference to the sound when compared to high end amps that include phono stages and CD players with DACs.
I don't think I understand the question, I thought all amps had a phono input, and all CD players had a DAC.
Are you comparing a "music centre" to hifi separates.

Mike
A lot of amps were made without phono sockets, especially when they thought the format was dead. Lots were made without Magnetic Cartridge pre-amps, when they put them in.

As with things Hi-Fi some people like to have separate everything, because you could get a better quality for everything - even pre-amps for record decks.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 6:34 pm   #7
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

Another advantage of the 'outboard DAC' approach is that if you want to transcribe a CD to another digital medium you can unplug bypass the DAC altogether and do a straight CD-player-to-digital-storage copy without the loss-of-quality inevitable with a DAC-followed-by-an-ADC copy.

My 20-year-old Philips CD-player and 15-year-old small-form-factor media-PC play together rater nicely over a SPDIF cable.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 6:43 pm   #8
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

The schtick that they used to sell separate DACs for CD players was that the erratic movements of the servos tracking the disc would put little brown-outs and surges on the power supplies within the CD player and that these power fluctuations would influence the DACs and the audio coming out of them.

Some CD players started sporting separate power supplies within their cabinet and claimed that it fixed this 'problem' Other manufacturers went a step further and put their DACs in separate boxes. This prised more money out of the pockets of those who swallowed the explanations. Some few people wondered if being plugged into the same wall might let the nasty little influences through. A small minority of people had an idea about how much electrical isolation could be achieved by well-designed regulators and filters, and had an appreciation of what level of perturbation would be audible.

This was the justification from the manufacturers of 2-box CD machines. They couldn't use the 'it allows you to pick the best brand for each box' argument without shooting themselves in the foot. Yet, it opened the door for independent DAC box makers to use just that argument and use it they did. The argument that it allows you to update your DAC or mechanism at a later date has some validity but relatively little utility because by the time you decide to do it, the interface standard will be passe. and besides, for the price of that new DAC box you could buy an all-in-one CD machine with that same new DAC device in it. The two box jobs were nothing if not grossly overpriced. Ideal machines for impressing the unknowing with.

Record-playing inputs were normal on most amplifiers up to about 1990. In the sixties you mostly got an input for a piezoelectric cartridge, by the seventies it would be a moving magnet cartridge. In the eighties the hifi buffs became used to needing an outboard box for amplifying the signals from their fashionable moving coil cartridges. In the nineties, record playing inputs vanished and if you were a weirdo who wanted to listen to such things you had to buy an outboard adaptor.

Inputs for tape recorders started to go the same way.

I have a separate power amp and preamp. The power amp lives over by the speakers and a low power signal goes along matched coax lines from the preamp/control box. My preamp has record playing inputs and the facilities for a couple of tape recorders and other such ancient pastimes.

I designed and built my own power amps and preamp. I could have done them any way I wanted.... I just happened to want this way. CD machine: Sony. Tape machine: Revox. Tuners: One Sony, one Revox. I just picked up things I felt were decent when the opportunity came along. Is it the best system in the worlld? Probably not and I haven't a clue what is the best system in the world. Its big big attribute is that it doesn't get in the way of listening to the music, at all.

Ignore the hype. Ignore everyone. Just do it as you enjoy it.

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Old 4th Dec 2018, 7:06 pm   #9
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

Some DACs do indeed sound better than others though. Some people like to use an old brick outhouse player like my Marantz CD42 with a much better outboard DAC. I've never bothered myself.

I have a Yamaha DVD player which I rescued from a skip. It claims to have some sort of fancy audio DAC inside which can do 2x and 4x upsampling when playing CDs, and it certainty sounds OK, but I've never listened to it closely through the main system.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 8:05 pm   #10
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

My experience has been that I don’t think there is necessarily a benefit from being off or on board but I’ve heard subjectively better and worse integrated’s and separates.

A few years back I picked up a Maverick D2 offboard dac for my old squeezebox duet and have used it since. Comparing to the squeezebox and the onboard dacs on a couple of nice older CD players to me the offboard dac does sound noticibly better than the onboard dac’s I compared it to. Then again it’s newer and I upgraded the opamp.

Conversely I have reasonably nice off board SUT and valve phono stage for my denon m/c cart but last year I picked up an old mid range JVC A-X3 amp from around 1979 from cash converters for £29 which has an onboard m/c phono stage. To my surprise as it came from the shop the JVC m/c stage sounded virtually the same as when I fed in the signal from the SUT with its cinemag transformers. I later found JVC used a lot of bespoke high quality transistors in their phono stages around this period.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 11:09 pm   #11
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

I have a stand-alone phono stage because my preamplifier doesn’t have a phono input.

I also have a separate DAC (Marantz CDA-94) that matches my CD player (CD-94) and I do use it because the player sounds even better through it than through it’s own DAC.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 10:03 am   #12
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

When separate DACs first became fashionable in the 90s I took my Technics CD player along to a dealer to listen to it coupled to the latest Arcam black box (5?). Everything we played sounded very flat and lifeless. Eventually I said let's try the Technics own analogue outputs through the same amp and speakers (I have forgotten what models the shop was using, but would have been up market). It was like someone pressing a stereo wide button, suddenly 3 dimensional music poured out. I said to the salesman "wow that's better", he just looked glum and didn't answer...

I don't dismiss separate DACs, but they're no panacea.

I had a similar experience more recently when a friend lent me an external phono preamp. It sounded rather 2 dimensional, going back to my Audiolab's internal stage was like pressing a 3d button. The Audiolab stage can be bettered, my recently acquired NAC72 is better still.

None of this means external units can't be better, but you may be surprised!

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Old 5th Dec 2018, 10:15 am   #13
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

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Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Some DACs do indeed sound better than others though ...
A couple of years ago I went to a public demonstration at a hi-fi show, given in fact by a member of this forum, of some early CD players from his collection. They were all played through the same power amp and speakers so the only differences were the CD transports, digital electronics and onboard DACs. They sounded noticeably different and since, as G8HQP has noted, the digital bits should be close to perfect, that supports the thesis that using a different DAC can change the sound.

Cheers,

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Old 5th Dec 2018, 10:26 am   #14
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

I am out of touch, I am still using my 90's Pioneer AX440 based system, with some good old Leak 2060 speakers from the 70's.
Mike
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 12:16 pm   #15
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

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I am out of touch, I am still using my 90's Pioneer AX440 based system, with some good old Leak 2060 speakers from the 70's.
Mike
You're happy with it I guess, so that's all that matters. And who is to say that your system doesn't perform as well as any modern one? Your gear was no slouch in its day after all.

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Old 5th Dec 2018, 12:39 pm   #16
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

I also have a Quad pre and power amp but also use a separate phono stage simply for the reason that I use two turntables and need vintage EQ. So I replaced the Quad 44 phono input board for a line one.

I remember reading somewhere that one of the first British two box CD and DAC combinations was caused simply by the fact that they wouldn't fit into one case, suppliers were closed for the Christmas period and the new model was due to be displayed at a New Year Hi-Fi show. Marketing did the rest. My memory may be wrong but it sounds plausible.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 12:42 pm   #17
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

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No manufacturer makes the best of everything
A hobbyist's myth rather than a sound technical case I think. Companies like Sony, Technics and B&O could all claim to have made complete suites of equipment where each piece is of such a standard that it cannot be usefully improved upon. Whether you can afford them is another matter, the mix and match argument only works for me if you are on a tight budget.

B&O's subdivisions seem to be the most logical:

receiver, cassette deck, turntable, loudspeakers.

Separating a pre and power amplifier is pointless other than for packaging reasons, why send a delicate signal between two boxes if you don't have to? Equally, the circuit of a tuner is small and doesn't use much power, so why not include it in the amplifier? I know the British brands tend to struggle with tuners but the Japanese can turn out decent ones at all price levels, so it really can't be that hard. As to phono stages, you can make one in a matchbox with a handful of bits that will run off a 9V battery. Why on earth does that need its own enclosure? The same goes for headphone amplifiers, a whole unit to replace a couple of resistors...

A separate turntable makes sense since its requirements share little with those for electronics. Tape machines are complex and require regular maintenance to keep on top form, so it makes sense to have them separate too.

The separate DAC idea for CD makes no sense to me at all. If you look at the interaction between the digital circuits and the DAC in a conventional player you will find many separate signals which flow back and forth, so why cram all these, plus the audio data, through a single S/PDIF link?

Hi-fi seems to be a hobby whose cardinal aim isn't technical excellence, if it was we'd all have SP-10s and HMA-7500 mkIIs. Instead, its about mythologies and pseudo science; perhaps it fulfils a need to have something just beyond the participant's understanding to believe in? Personally, I have church for that (and a B&O 8000 for listening) so I don't really get the whole 'audiophile' thing...
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 12:45 pm   #18
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

There is much less variation in the performance of mid market integrated hifi amps than the industry would have you believe. By the mid 80s, engineers had worked out how to get the best performance for the least cost, and subsequent amps all sounded very similar. I have 4 examples, all from different manufacturers (Marantz, Rotel, Cambridge Audio and Harman/Kardon) and they all sound pretty much the same.

The British market was particularly keen on separate tuners, which is why high end Japanese receivers are so rare here, while the market is awash with unwanted 80s and 90s tuners.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 1:06 pm   #19
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

Separate tuners could be explained by the fact that changes kept being made to the FM band and some radios did not cover the entire band after more changes.
A separate tuner is a smaller bit to throw away if it no longer picks up a station the owner wants to listen to.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 1:13 pm   #20
G8HQP Dave
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Default Re: Hifi separates - how 'separate' do you go?

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Originally Posted by Studio263
As to phono stages, you can make one in a matchbox with a handful of bits that will run off a 9V battery. Why on earth does that need its own enclosure?
It would be difficult to make a decent phono preamp running off a 9V battery, as it would be likely to have insufficient headroom. For good performance you generally need two opamps per channel, plus close tolerance capacitors - which tend to be a bit larger than average. The final result would be the size of a number of matchboxes, even without its own PSU.

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Originally Posted by Studio263
The separate DAC idea for CD makes no sense to me at all. If you look at the interaction between the digital circuits and the DAC in a conventional player you will find many separate signals which flow back and forth, so why cram all these, plus the audio data, through a single S/PDIF link?
SPDIF simply carries audio data in one direction; no other signals, no reverse flow. Once the data has been extracted from the CD it generally flows in one direction only. There is no feedback from the DAC to earlier stages in a CD player, so I don't know what all these "separate signals" are which you have found in CD players you have studied.
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