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Old 26th Jun 2011, 12:33 pm   #1
Junk Box Nick
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Default Pye Westminster

Apologies if this is in the wrong place.

As part of my clear out I have found what appears to be an unmodified Pye Westminster that I was given yonks ago. It even has the handset, aerial and power unit. Of course, I've no idea of it's working status - most likely needs plenty if work.

I remember people converting them for amateur use, though from my youth my most significant memory is of the Pye Ranger being used on 144MHz AM. "calling CQ and tuning the band from high to low..."

Is there any use for this equipment these days?
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Old 26th Jun 2011, 12:37 pm   #2
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

They were a very good radio, I actually had some as PMRs! It will need to be the high band version for 2m conversion, mine were low band. Must be useful for something though. I still have the base station in my loft if anyone wants it.

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Old 26th Jun 2011, 2:04 pm   #3
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

The Westminster is regarded as 'old hat' these days, but they are still capable of working well on FM (or even AM) given some TLC. I used one in the shack and one in my car for several years back in the late 80's/early 90's.
Their main problem is that they need a pair of crystals for each frequency of interest, and I think each pair made to order will knock you back about £20 now. I think it used to be about £11 per pair.
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Old 26th Jun 2011, 3:23 pm   #4
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

The great thing about them is that they have an IF gain control which you can set at the signal threshold so that it doesn't blow you out of the cab when you open the squelch, in fact our base station was left with the squelch permamantly open and you could only hear a faint hiss but when a signal arrived it was perfectly readable.

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Old 26th Jun 2011, 4:30 pm   #5
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

They were a great radio alright, I did 15 years with Pye and Philips and for me, they were one of the best the firm ever came up with. Dead easy to work on, and simple modular construction.

There are so many variants; the set will have a plate on the side with the model number on it and you can decode what it is from this. The W15 was the commonest model, and the number will break down like this:

W15-mode--style- where mode will be either AM or FM and the style will be B for boot mount (remote, needs a control head and multiway cable with Elco 36 way connectors) or D for dash.

e.g. W15FMD

Under this will be another set of figures which decode into the band and channel spacing, and number of channels

This could look like:

SE1E16

and decodes into channel spacing-tx band-rx band-number of channels.

Channel spacing will be S for 12.5 kHz (+/- 3.75 kHz bandwidth), V for 25 kHz (+/- 7.5 kHz).

E1 and E2 are low band- I can't remember the exact figures but E1 is 60-72 or something like that and E2 is 72-87 MHz.
M1 and M2 are mid-band- usually tx on 105-107 MHz and rx on 138-141
B0 band is the one that puts a smile on your face if you want an easy 2m or marine conversion; it's 140 -160 or thereabouts
A1 is highband 160-175 MHz. There were specials made for the police in the pre-WARC days (82MHz tx and 101MHz rx; this was P band) and also wierd bands for other countries; I've seen one on about 50MHz which may have been G band.

There was also a UHF Westminster that was always boot mount, W15U, and the W30's with a high power valve PA that were always AM and again, due to the longer chassis, always boot mount.

The IFs are 10.7 MHz and 455kHz in all versions and the bandwidth can be changed by changing the 1st IF crystal filter.

Hope this helps
Alan
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Old 26th Jun 2011, 6:36 pm   #6
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

I think I have a couple of W30's somewhere, Valve PA and an inverter, used to whine every time you keyed it up.

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Old 26th Jun 2011, 7:39 pm   #7
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Yeah they did. When a customer came in with a faulty one in a vehicle, the first test was to key it and listen to the inverter. If it started okay but then laboured heavily when the heater in the QQZ06-40A came up to emission temp. that meant no drive- usually a u/s crystal. If it didn't load at all, this could mean that the antenna was faulty- so the PA anode current was low. Finally, you could usually hear some variation if you gave it a test count, so you could even tell if it was modding... who needs test gear?!

The inverter and the mod. output stage both used 2N3055's IIRC and I seem to remember changing a few of these. But I never- and I mean never ever, had to replace a PA valve.

BTW they were capable of doing far more than the specification 25 watts for a legal PMR set. A 'good' one would do 35 watts or more. To make them legal you uncoupled the PA anode a bit and dipped it again.

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Old 26th Jun 2011, 11:54 pm   #8
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

I've been in the shed and had a look. It says PYE Westminster on the front of the hinged panel that screws down with thumbscrews.

There's a panel on the side that says: CAT No. AT04458 or is the last digit B?

The Serial No. is 2308 something something A

The numbers are hand written and a bit scrawly and the panel has been scratched at some time that's made part of the serial number unreadable. The rest of the panel: Volts, Freq, Code, are all blank.

On the other side there are two panels with transmit and receive frequencies - 12 channels in total - but all the fields are blank or have been weathered away.

The whip aerial that came with it is about 56cm long.

What I presume is the inverter is a nice hefty box with heat sinks and power transistors in cases like those of 2N3055.

This case doesn't look big enough to house a QQZ06-40A. I'm familiar with the QQV06-40A and I assume this is a similar size as the Z is the quick heating version.

The handset that has come with it is a telephone type handset.

Last edited by Junk Box Nick; 26th Jun 2011 at 11:57 pm. Reason: Clarification
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Old 27th Jun 2011, 2:47 pm   #9
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Okay then. Well It's boot mount from your description of the lid with the thumbscrews; do you have the control box and multiway cable?

The info I gave in post no 5 should have been engraved in the 'code' field of the label. It's unusual, but not unknown, for it to have been omitted. They were all hand engraved. Your serial number suggests an early-ish set; during the Wessie's production life the system was changed for a six-digit number prefixed by a C (Cambridge factory) or an H (Haverhill factory) and the first digit told you the year of manufacture.

Is the case of the set roughly square in plan behind the hinged lid and its frame?

The antenna is a quarter wave whip; its length is interesting though. It should be about 16 inches for highband (usually cut for around 171/2 MHz) and 19 for two metres but that length puts it in the aircraft band by my calculations... about 132 MHz Mmmm, interesting!

If you take the lids off (2 x 'Dzuz' fasteners on each of the top and bottom lids, just turn them 90 degrees) and maybe take a couple of pictures I'll be able to tell you a lot more.

The box with the heatsink and power transistors on it sounds like an AC15PU or an AC10PU- they are mains power units designed to run a mobile radio when in a fixed application. The latter is bigger and was intended for the earlier Pye Cambridge but were so reliable that many lived on to power a Wessie when they replaced the hybrid Cambridges.

As I said, some pictures would help a lot at this stage.

Hope this helps!
Alan G0NFY
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Old 27th Jun 2011, 4:18 pm   #10
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

The case is rectangular and almost pizza box in height perhaps 2 - 3 inches high - which I why I was sceptical about the QQVO6-40. There is a multi connector cable that plugs in and is held in position by the hinged lid - this is on the shorter side. If I was guessing, from a purely aesthetic point of view, I'd say this is 1970s kit.

There is another panel as well as the power unit and all this lot, including the handset is still all connected together! It was given to me 'because I am interested in radio' and frankly I just put it in the shed as it was because I was busy with other things in life. Actually, I viewed it as more junk I could do without...

The aerial is interesting as it doesn't have any sort of pip on the top and could quite easily take your eye out - so I do wonder if it has been cut down at some point.

I'll take some photos - it's not to hand where I am - but as I'm new around here and not much of a message board person how do I upload those?

P.S. Thanks so far!

Last edited by Junk Box Nick; 27th Jun 2011 at 4:25 pm. Reason: Courtesy!
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Old 27th Jun 2011, 6:31 pm   #11
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

If you hit 'Go Advanced' instead of 'Post Quick Reply' and then scroll down below the editor, you will see a button 'Manage Attachments'. Thus will pop up a window that will allow you to upload files, including images from your computer. Note that there is a size limitation and you may have to resize the images first.But that's how its done, in a nutshell.

Oh, I see I've just become a tetrode!

Yep, 1970's kit. Actually, production started in the late sixties and continued into the 1980's with over 100,000 being made. Yours sounds like a W15, and obviously you have the complete fit. The valve fitted in the W30 horizontally incidentally; within the same size- i.e. as you say, about 3 inches. There wasn't much clearance around it!

The antennas were supplied with a rubber 'pip' that pushed on the end. The pips generally went missing- ripped off by car washes- just look at any taxi! We had a bin full of them in the stores and would replace any that were missing- as you say, for health and safety reasons.

Cheers
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Old 27th Jun 2011, 8:05 pm   #12
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Thanks, no problem resizing my shots so I'll post when I've got it sorted.

I'll be interested to see how the 6-40 is arranged - 25-35w if I remember correctly is well within spec as I seem to remember them delivering 80-90w as linear amplifiers on 2m.

And I've gained a grid so it's on from rectification to amplification!
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Old 27th Jun 2011, 8:16 pm   #13
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Quote:
And I've gained a grid so it's on from rectification to amplification!
Well it could be worse; allegedly I have a kink in my characteristic...;-)

Fairly sure your wessie won't have a valve in it, sounds like a W15. I'll try to find a pic of a W30 and post it.
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Old 28th Jun 2011, 7:36 pm   #14
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Nice radios. I recently refurbished a W30AM. It produces 30w of good quality AM on 70.26MHz. The QQZ06-40 is an amazing valve, directly heated and full power within a second or two of hitting the PTT.

I know the W30AM was made in both 12v and 24v versions - was this the case for the other variants?
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Old 28th Jun 2011, 11:26 pm   #15
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

I used to repair Westminsters, Whitehalls etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't both supply rails isolated from chassis. I seem to remember spending hours trying to find the dreaded "leak", when one of the isolating components went faulty. Classic pieces of history though. I've still got a W15FM hiding somewhere. From memory the UHF versions were a touch on the temporamental side.
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Old 29th Jun 2011, 5:11 am   #16
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
I seem to remember spending hours trying to find the dreaded "leak", when one of the isolating components went faulty.
You are correct
It was a job given, in the factory, to student engineers. Of which I was one!
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Old 29th Jun 2011, 7:17 am   #17
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

W30 was the only version to my knowledge that came in a 24v version. With the other versions you had to have a separate 24-12 convertor unit. You didn't take a pic of your W30, did you?

The UHF versions were indeed a bit temperamental, difficult to tune and they almost never met spec on tx power. A later version was made with two PA devices in parallel and they were okay. It had lots of other features though like being able to work full duplex, which in the police mobile repeater installation could be used to repeat VHF onto UHF and vice versa, and to provide a talkthrough repeater on UHF. The VHF part of this was the W20 Whitehall. The rx front end though was a magnificent piece of engineering, cavities cast from brass and silver plated, containing helical resonators.

Isolation was checked at field service depots as well. Petrol tankers have an isolated chassis and a test box with a double pole push button switch that connected a bulb from each supply line to chassis. If one lit brighter than the other, the vehicle had an electrical fault and couldn't be used. Obviously all electrical equipment fitted to the vehicle had to be isolated, and the Westminster found a market here.
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Old 30th Jun 2011, 6:47 pm   #18
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

I've opened it up and taken some shots.

There's definitely no 6-40 in this one!
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Old 30th Jun 2011, 8:40 pm   #19
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Oh wow! Thats a very special Wessie, its an LW15FM 'London Radiophone.' It's in a slightly stretched case, with some additional boards fitted. These included a 5-tone decoder, a logic board, and a tone generator board.

I'm going to take you back to before the days of cellular, to when BT- The Post Office as it was then- operated the Radiophone System - It was called System III to be precise. Very wealthy people- and we're talking rock stars, senior politicians, rich businessmen and the like could buy and operate these. You sometimes see them in films of the 1960's and 70's- they were the original mobile phone. Very expensive to buy, and very expensive to run.

The system started in London only, but had spread national by the mid 70's. It was divided into regions- we were East Pennine here in Sheffield. In each region, a number of working channels were available on different masts, and there was a common paging channel. All were 163/4 MHz mobile rx and 158/9 MHz mobile tx. When the handset was on the rest, the set was listening on the paging channel, which was channel 10. Here's how it worked.

You wanted to make a call, so you lifted the handset and selected a free channel- the 'busy' light on the head wasn't on. Then you pressed the call button. The set radiated a 2.4 kHz tone on the working channel, which alerted the operator. They would then call you back- "Hello, East Pennine?" and you would ask to be connected to the number you wished to call. The operator would dial it and then patch you through. You had to push the PTT to talk.

When there was an incoming call for you, the five-tone paging call went out over all the base stations in turn. When the radiophone decoded it, the tx fired back a short 2.4 kHz tone in acknowledgement, and beeped at you. You had to pick up the handset, go to a free working channel and call the operator as before, who would connect the incoming call. Only this time, the call button generated 2.6kHz to tell the operator you were responding to in incoming call.

As I said, the basic set is a ten-channel FM, 25kHz channel spacing on 164/159 MHz and so is useful for conversions, but as you have an intact, unmolested LW15 with all the parts I'd be tempted to keep it that way- it must surely be a piece of history. The 5-tone decoder still has the original coding plug, you can see from pic 2. On here will be written the guy's telephone number.

The system III was replaced by IIIA which was a bit more automated, and most of these were rendered obselete by the very early eighties.

The box with all the heatsinks I don't recognise at all, it looks like something homebrew Don't recognise the other panel either. I suspect they are not related to the Radiophone.

Thanks for posting the pics; I have to say that I am gobsmacked at seeing one of these again. They were rare in their day and must be like hens teeth now.
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Old 30th Jun 2011, 9:58 pm   #20
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Default Re: Pye Westminster

Crikey! Fascinating information. Thank you for all that. I wonder if it belonged to anyone famous?

The trouble is that I'm wracking my brains to think who gave this to me. It was someone who knew I was into ham radio but I haven't bothered with the hobby since about 1987 until just recently. This might have been in the shed at my parents' house ten years or more. The circumstances are very vague now. I wasn't that interested and just said "thanks" and slung it in the shed. The shed was full of car bits and a clear out brought it to light.

I take it that the coding plug you refer to is on right hand side of the PCB that is just behind the front panel on pic 2. There is a five figure number written on this. On the chassis near the PC is some hand written stuff in pencil that says:

"Amend 373 R/M"

and then below that

"INS 4/11/74" and "CODE" and the same number that is on the plug on the PCB. I would guess that 4/11/74 was the date some work was done. As you say this is over ten years before cellphones started to appear.

There is something else written below that but it is rubbed away. it might say "MADE" or "MAVE"

All the stuff came together in a tangled lump. The cable was still plugged into the front panel until I came to undo it for the photograph and the other stuff was entangled with it so I assumed it was all part of the same gear. It might be two separate items - the panel between the handset and the heat sinked box has a Heath logo on it as in Heathkit.
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