'Scope recomendations ? - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

ms660 · 15th Jul 2011, 10:52 am

Hello all, I need a second hand oscilloscope..20-30 mhz 'ish..dual trace..modernish..delay timebase and/or storage not a pre requisite.
I need a general consensus as to reliability/ servicing/spares availability/recomendations etc.
Absolute max budget £150 Non PC based.
Any suggestions ?

Cheers.

dave cox · 15th Jul 2011, 12:28 pm

From a previous discusion :

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=67719

neon indicator · 15th Jul 2011, 1:25 pm

Hameg or Tektronix, Likely 20MHz even is good enough. You might pay £15 to £50 for 'scope and £25 to £80 for carriage!

You need a 500M samples/s to 1G samples/s Digital Scope (PC or not) to be even close to an ancient 25MHz Analogue Scope. I had a dual channel 10MHz or 15MHz Tektronix that was fairly flat to 20MHz and would show signals at 150MHz. My Hameg 203-6 is a 20MHz scope and doesn't be as useful at 20MHz to 100MHz as the supposedly lower frequency Tektronix.

A 50MHz sampling Digital scope if switching between 2 channels can't display a sinewave reliably above 12MHz and is no use to view shape of a waveform above 1.2MHz! So you doing the right thing going for 20MHz to 30MHz analogue scope.

For up to 20KHz on PC / Laptop look at this free signal generator/Scope/Spectrum analyser. Means you don't need a Storage Scope. http://www.sillanumsoft.org/
I've used it for years on PC/laptop and great companion to RF Signal Generator and Analogue Scope.

I had a 100M sample/s USB PC scope and it was useless toy.

WME_bill · 15th Jul 2011, 3:33 pm

This is a long as a piece of string. For your spec, shouldn't be too difficult to find something. Avoid digital, as the performance of a 20 Mhz analogue is vastly better for normal radio and audio work. No spares from the manufacturers after 10 years, and you will be looking for 25 years or so old. Valve stuff will need a strong bench to put it on. Check late valve and early transistor 1960/65 as they often used tunnel diodes, which are impossible to replace, and tend to fail. From 1985 scopes over 50 Mhz usually use custom IC's. Transistor arrays like CA3086 as used in D1010 or ECL like MC10109 for trigger are commodity, so available.
Be prepared for a bit of maintenance, like cleaning switches, and replacing a failed component, frequently a zener diode or a high voltage transistor. Choose a scope which uses commodity transistors, and resistors and capacitors, available from the usual Farnell, Radiospares, Cricklewood etc. Many on this forum replace electrolytic capacitors, though for 1970/80 stuff I find that less necessary than for 1930/1950 vintage radios.
Models: what turns up. Solartron CD1400 huge seller, later CD1740 and Enertec 5222 perhaps built down to a price. Telequipment D43, and transistor D66/67 to D75/83 huge sellers; D1010 and D32 common. Cossor CDU150 and SELabs SM111/ Marconi TF2204 both built to high standard for MoD contracts. I particularly like the SM111 as I have found it very reliable, easy to use, innards accesible and uses all commodity transistors and parts. Tektronix 453/465 series top of the market, and prices. Uses I some Ic's. Magnificent machines. A very strong lobby of supporters on the forum. Later Tek not quite the reputation of the earlier models. Hewlett Packard unfashionable, though I use the HP1707, small, excellent tube trace, very good performance, and no IC's, so easy to repair. HP180 series very versatile, but 1965/1980 and showing their age. Philips fine up to 1980's when using custom IC's over 50Mhz. But PM3217, PM324X and earlier double beam ones fine. Advance OS1000/OS3000 common. Spares can be difficult as Advance policy was to scrap spares after 10 years, though usually commodity available. Hameg- lots around and service data seems to be available. I am sure there are many other makes and models, but most of these I have some experience of.
Make sure you can get the service manual or circuit diagram. Vital. Try Jon's ValvePage (mainly older than you want to achieve your spec), K04BB, BAMA, Frank Philipse, Ebaman, this Forum, all for free. Mauritron will cost you about £10.
When you find a specific model, try asking again on the forum or by PM and we will see what we can suggest, and confirm the specification and manual info. Bill m0wpn

neon indicator · 15th Jul 2011, 3:58 pm

I'd go for 1980s models. The hamegs usually had full schematic in the operator manual and have nothing special in them. Hence poorer performance than a 1980s Tektronix which may have some parts fabricated from unobtainium. But for the same age the Tektronix, HP (now Agilent), Philips, Gould, Advance, Telequipment are probably better spec but harder to fix.

Unless you have space for a Trolley or a very large bench and especially want Valve gear I'd avoid the Valved scopes. Though likely the only irreplaceable part in them is Transformers. The cheaper, smaller and easier to fix valve scopes often for school labs or audio work and not as good as a modern PC sound chip! The "decent" valve scopes were very expensive "high end" indeed in their day and shipping can easily be £100+ due to weight!

gingpeakin · 15th Jul 2011, 6:40 pm

Have a look at Stewart of Reading - they've got Tek 465s and 465Bs for £100 and £125. I have a 465B and it's fantastic. 100Mhz, dual timebase, trigger view (priceless), big bright display etc. etc. You can get the manuals easily and there are loads around for spares. Would of cost 1000s new.

No connection but a satisfied customer....

Ging

val33vo · 15th Jul 2011, 7:28 pm

Definately would recommend a TEKTRONIX 475B 200MHZ twin channel, mine cost about £400 10 years ago so no doubt much cheaper now due to its age and yes Stewart of Reading is a good company ( in my experiance ) If you dont need so high a spec machine then maybe a SE Labs SM111 would do the trick

The only fault ive had with the TEK was a FET gone in the input amplifier no doubt blown as I was working with valve equipment at the time and due to excessive voltage at the probe

regards

VAL33VO

Skywave · 16th Jul 2011, 1:10 am

O/P's spec.: summary.

Wanted: A second-hand 'scope.

Requirements:
20-30 MHz.
dual trace.
modernish.
non PC-based.

Not req'd:
delay timebase; storage.

Opinions requested on:
reliability / servicing / spares availability / recommendations, etc.

£ limit:
£150

------------------------------------------------

That format helps me crystallise my thoughts on your need.

If I was in your position, and without any experience or facilities for repairing a possible non-worker purchased on the Internet, I would talk to Stewarts of Reading and enquire about a Tektronix 455 or a 465. (By your spec. & £ limit, you don't need a 475 or a 485).
Yes, these do have custom parts fitted, and yes, these can fail - but by purchasing from someone reputable like the above, you have eliminated the risk of buying an 'unknown'. Plus, with these 'scopes, there is a lot of experience & knowledge available right here on this Forum. This even runs (possibly) to arranging for your 'scope to be repaired by a member in their own workshop - should it fail at sometime in the future. This comment is particularly relevant since maintenance of these is a decidely non-trivial matter

:a 'professional' repair will almost certainly be a non-economic proposition. Having said that, provided that such a 'scope is acquired in 'good working order' (and not necessarily recently calibrated - although that would be nice!

), is looked after, not misused, is kept and used in a 'non-hostile atmosphere' (damp, dust, humidity, extremes of hot & cold - the usual evils), you should get many years of service out of it.

That is my advice based on my many years of ownership and maintenance of Tek. 4xx 'scopes.

Aside: I have no vested interest in the named company.

Al.

dave cox · 17th Jul 2011, 1:40 am

My alternative recommendation is a tek 7000 series scope, eg 7603 or R7603. These go for very little money and you could probably buy 2 for £150 !! However, don''t even think about posting one of these. Ideally, avoid having any scope posted unless you can get your money back if it arrives with a broken tube.

dc

Oldtestgear · 17th Jul 2011, 9:32 am

I am a huge fan of the Tek 7000 stuff but it does not like being posted! Too large & heavy to ship safely unless you can get it double boxed & properly packed.

Also the plugins will probably cost more than the mainframe if bought separately. Best to get a complete set up and then decide if you need extra plugins afterwards when you know it is working properly.

FWIW

Phil

PJL · 17th Jul 2011, 9:54 am

At the moment I have a TEK 454A (150MHz) and a Farnell 30-4D (30MHz). Both are discrete transistor designs and generally repairable. They were cheap, the Farnell FOC. Both came with faults but it cost me time and little money to repair.

Brightness: Cheap scopes often have poor brightness and are unable to cope with single tringgers at fast speeds. The TEK is just awesome but the Farnell is better than most.

Trigger stability: Both of these use tunnel diodes for triggering. The TEK needed the diode biasing changed but now never misses a beat. The Farnell is also extremely stable.

I have two scope so that I can repair the other although I have had no need since both have been reliable since first repair.

ms660 · 17th Jul 2011, 11:29 am

Thankyou to all who have replied to my original post on this subject including those who have PM'd me with kind offers.
Because of postal/damage concerns I have decided to try and source a 'scope nearer to where I live so that I can pick up.

Many thanks again.

Lawrence.

Mods can close this thread if they see fit.

15th Jul 2011, 10:52 am	#1
ms660 Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Cornwall, UK. Posts: 13,454	'Scope recomendations ? Hello all, I need a second hand oscilloscope..20-30 mhz 'ish..dual trace..modernish..delay timebase and/or storage not a pre requisite. I need a general consensus as to reliability/ servicing/spares availability/recomendations etc. Absolute max budget £150 Non PC based. Any suggestions ? Cheers.

15th Jul 2011, 12:28 pm	#2
dave cox Nonode Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,062	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? From a previous discusion : https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=67719

15th Jul 2011, 1:25 pm	#3
neon indicator Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland. Posts: 1,183	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? Hameg or Tektronix, Likely 20MHz even is good enough. You might pay £15 to £50 for 'scope and £25 to £80 for carriage! You need a 500M samples/s to 1G samples/s Digital Scope (PC or not) to be even close to an ancient 25MHz Analogue Scope. I had a dual channel 10MHz or 15MHz Tektronix that was fairly flat to 20MHz and would show signals at 150MHz. My Hameg 203-6 is a 20MHz scope and doesn't be as useful at 20MHz to 100MHz as the supposedly lower frequency Tektronix. A 50MHz sampling Digital scope if switching between 2 channels can't display a sinewave reliably above 12MHz and is no use to view shape of a waveform above 1.2MHz! So you doing the right thing going for 20MHz to 30MHz analogue scope. For up to 20KHz on PC / Laptop look at this free signal generator/Scope/Spectrum analyser. Means you don't need a Storage Scope. http://www.sillanumsoft.org/ I've used it for years on PC/laptop and great companion to RF Signal Generator and Analogue Scope. I had a 100M sample/s USB PC scope and it was useless toy.

15th Jul 2011, 3:33 pm	#4
WME_bill Octode Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Exeter, Devon, UK. Posts: 1,554	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? This is a long as a piece of string. For your spec, shouldn't be too difficult to find something. Avoid digital, as the performance of a 20 Mhz analogue is vastly better for normal radio and audio work. No spares from the manufacturers after 10 years, and you will be looking for 25 years or so old. Valve stuff will need a strong bench to put it on. Check late valve and early transistor 1960/65 as they often used tunnel diodes, which are impossible to replace, and tend to fail. From 1985 scopes over 50 Mhz usually use custom IC's. Transistor arrays like CA3086 as used in D1010 or ECL like MC10109 for trigger are commodity, so available. Be prepared for a bit of maintenance, like cleaning switches, and replacing a failed component, frequently a zener diode or a high voltage transistor. Choose a scope which uses commodity transistors, and resistors and capacitors, available from the usual Farnell, Radiospares, Cricklewood etc. Many on this forum replace electrolytic capacitors, though for 1970/80 stuff I find that less necessary than for 1930/1950 vintage radios. Models: what turns up. Solartron CD1400 huge seller, later CD1740 and Enertec 5222 perhaps built down to a price. Telequipment D43, and transistor D66/67 to D75/83 huge sellers; D1010 and D32 common. Cossor CDU150 and SELabs SM111/ Marconi TF2204 both built to high standard for MoD contracts. I particularly like the SM111 as I have found it very reliable, easy to use, innards accesible and uses all commodity transistors and parts. Tektronix 453/465 series top of the market, and prices. Uses I some Ic's. Magnificent machines. A very strong lobby of supporters on the forum. Later Tek not quite the reputation of the earlier models. Hewlett Packard unfashionable, though I use the HP1707, small, excellent tube trace, very good performance, and no IC's, so easy to repair. HP180 series very versatile, but 1965/1980 and showing their age. Philips fine up to 1980's when using custom IC's over 50Mhz. But PM3217, PM324X and earlier double beam ones fine. Advance OS1000/OS3000 common. Spares can be difficult as Advance policy was to scrap spares after 10 years, though usually commodity available. Hameg- lots around and service data seems to be available. I am sure there are many other makes and models, but most of these I have some experience of. Make sure you can get the service manual or circuit diagram. Vital. Try Jon's ValvePage (mainly older than you want to achieve your spec), K04BB, BAMA, Frank Philipse, Ebaman, this Forum, all for free. Mauritron will cost you about £10. When you find a specific model, try asking again on the forum or by PM and we will see what we can suggest, and confirm the specification and manual info. Bill m0wpn Last edited by WME_bill; 15th Jul 2011 at 3:40 pm.

15th Jul 2011, 3:58 pm	#5
neon indicator Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Co. Limerick, Ireland. Posts: 1,183	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? I'd go for 1980s models. The hamegs usually had full schematic in the operator manual and have nothing special in them. Hence poorer performance than a 1980s Tektronix which may have some parts fabricated from unobtainium. But for the same age the Tektronix, HP (now Agilent), Philips, Gould, Advance, Telequipment are probably better spec but harder to fix. Unless you have space for a Trolley or a very large bench and especially want Valve gear I'd avoid the Valved scopes. Though likely the only irreplaceable part in them is Transformers. The cheaper, smaller and easier to fix valve scopes often for school labs or audio work and not as good as a modern PC sound chip! The "decent" valve scopes were very expensive "high end" indeed in their day and shipping can easily be £100+ due to weight!

15th Jul 2011, 6:40 pm	#6
gingpeakin Hexode Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Worthing, Sussex, UK. Posts: 276	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? Have a look at Stewart of Reading - they've got Tek 465s and 465Bs for £100 and £125. I have a 465B and it's fantastic. 100Mhz, dual timebase, trigger view (priceless), big bright display etc. etc. You can get the manuals easily and there are loads around for spares. Would of cost 1000s new. No connection but a satisfied customer.... Ging

15th Jul 2011, 7:28 pm	#7
val33vo Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banffshire, Scotland, UK. Posts: 191	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? Definately would recommend a TEKTRONIX 475B 200MHZ twin channel, mine cost about £400 10 years ago so no doubt much cheaper now due to its age and yes Stewart of Reading is a good company ( in my experiance ) If you dont need so high a spec machine then maybe a SE Labs SM111 would do the trick The only fault ive had with the TEK was a FET gone in the input amplifier no doubt blown as I was working with valve equipment at the time and due to excessive voltage at the probe regards VAL33VO

16th Jul 2011, 1:10 am	#8
Skywave Rest in Peace Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chard, South Somerset, UK. Posts: 7,457	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? O/P's spec.: summary. Wanted: A second-hand 'scope. Requirements: 20-30 MHz. dual trace. modernish. non PC-based. Not req'd: delay timebase; storage. Opinions requested on: reliability / servicing / spares availability / recommendations, etc. £ limit: £150 ------------------------------------------------ That format helps me crystallise my thoughts on your need. If I was in your position, and without any experience or facilities for repairing a possible non-worker purchased on the Internet, I would talk to Stewarts of Reading and enquire about a Tektronix 455 or a 465. (By your spec. & £ limit, you don't need a 475 or a 485). Yes, these do have custom parts fitted, and yes, these can fail - but by purchasing from someone reputable like the above, you have eliminated the risk of buying an 'unknown'. Plus, with these 'scopes, there is a lot of experience & knowledge available right here on this Forum. This even runs (possibly) to arranging for your 'scope to be repaired by a member in their own workshop - should it fail at sometime in the future. This comment is particularly relevant since maintenance of these is a decidely non-trivial matter :a 'professional' repair will almost certainly be a non-economic proposition. Having said that, provided that such a 'scope is acquired in 'good working order' (and not necessarily recently calibrated - although that would be nice! ), is looked after, not misused, is kept and used in a 'non-hostile atmosphere' (damp, dust, humidity, extremes of hot & cold - the usual evils), you should get many years of service out of it. That is my advice based on my many years of ownership and maintenance of Tek. 4xx 'scopes. Aside: I have no vested interest in the named company. Al. Last edited by Skywave; 16th Jul 2011 at 1:12 am. Reason: General tidy-up.

17th Jul 2011, 1:40 am	#9
dave cox Nonode Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,062	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? My alternative recommendation is a tek 7000 series scope, eg 7603 or R7603. These go for very little money and you could probably buy 2 for £150 !! However, don''t even think about posting one of these. Ideally, avoid having any scope posted unless you can get your money back if it arrives with a broken tube. dc

17th Jul 2011, 9:32 am	#10
Oldtestgear Hexode Join Date: May 2008 Location: Devon, UK. Posts: 307	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? I am a huge fan of the Tek 7000 stuff but it does not like being posted! Too large & heavy to ship safely unless you can get it double boxed & properly packed. Also the plugins will probably cost more than the mainframe if bought separately. Best to get a complete set up and then decide if you need extra plugins afterwards when you know it is working properly. FWIW Phil

17th Jul 2011, 9:54 am	#11
PJL Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Seaford, East Sussex, UK. Posts: 5,997	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? At the moment I have a TEK 454A (150MHz) and a Farnell 30-4D (30MHz). Both are discrete transistor designs and generally repairable. They were cheap, the Farnell FOC. Both came with faults but it cost me time and little money to repair. Brightness: Cheap scopes often have poor brightness and are unable to cope with single tringgers at fast speeds. The TEK is just awesome but the Farnell is better than most. Trigger stability: Both of these use tunnel diodes for triggering. The TEK needed the diode biasing changed but now never misses a beat. The Farnell is also extremely stable. I have two scope so that I can repair the other although I have had no need since both have been reliable since first repair.

17th Jul 2011, 11:29 am	#12
ms660 Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Cornwall, UK. Posts: 13,454	Re: 'Scope recomendations ? Thankyou to all who have replied to my original post on this subject including those who have PM'd me with kind offers. Because of postal/damage concerns I have decided to try and source a 'scope nearer to where I live so that I can pick up. Many thanks again. Lawrence. Mods can close this thread if they see fit.