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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 2:49 am   #21
Techman
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

I think it's likely to be fine for all of us experienced folk to do these sort of modifications and know that we're doing it correctly and safely. What really bothers me personally is new members who are obviously very inexperienced, being advised to, or being told it's OK when they intend to do so, to fit earths which could end up being tacked onto chassis metalwork with a 15 watt iron and likely to come off and waft around inside the cabinet at a later date. Also the isolating transformer that I found swinging on a single loose wood screw inside a record player, obviously having been done by an enthusiastic amateur who'd probably read what to do on the internet!
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 4:18 am   #22
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

Just a thought. How would anyone know who had done what to a 60 year old radio, record player etc that had changed hands many times?
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 11:00 am   #23
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

So many questions you could ask and many opinions given I suppose this subject could run and run without ever getting a satisfactory legal answer.
The subject of Training, Apprenticeships, Qualifications, Trade Tests, and Competence could make for an interesting debate within the topic of Safety.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 11:15 am   #24
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

My first job was with a small company who produced kits for home construction which included live-chassis AC/DC TRF radios (no case included) which could have been lethal. Assuming some of these might have survived, they would be classed as 'original'. If somone now fits the kit in a properly insulated box and makes the thing reasonably safe - hey, it has been 'modified'!
I often think of the line from 'Dam Busters' - "Rules were made for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools..."
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 11:28 am   #25
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

There is an interesting debate going on in the Components Section of this forum regarding “ lifting the earth connector “. Well worth reading.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 11:30 am   #26
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

Should have said “elevated ground”
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 11:54 am   #27
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

I had that quote from the Dambusters in my head last night but neglected to quote it..

Things that does occur to me regarding a 7 year jail sentence is that (even without knowing any details) this strongly infers a knowledge that the actions undertaken are dangerous to life and limb, and a willingness to ignore the fact at the expense of others. (ie the culpability of a drink-driver 2.5 times over the limit-drunk enough to be dangerous but sober enough to know that they are endangering) It also hints at previous convictions or previous cautions. Just causing harm through being inept tends to get....well, let's say 18 months (possibly even suspended) and a three or four figure fine (means tested)

Unlucky could mean unlucky to get caught or unlucky to get 7yrs...and i appreciate you may not be able to expand on the case for legal reasons/forum decorum reasons Techman!

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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 12:01 pm   #28
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

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Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
Unlucky could mean unlucky to get caught or unlucky to get 7yrs...and i appreciate you may not be able to expand on the case for legal reasons/forum decorum reasons Techman!

Dave
With very few exceptions reports of court cases are in the public domain and I can see no reason why chapter and verse shouldn't be given.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 1:30 pm   #29
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin.m View Post
Just a thought. How would anyone know who had done what to a 60 year old radio, record player etc that had changed hands many times?
On a point of detail, the offence is not always (I imagine not usually, in fact) doing work to an unacceptable standard. It can simply be selling a piece of equipment which contravenes the rules, even if you aren't responsible for or even aware of whatever shortcomings the kit might have.

Of course if you do do a poor repair/modification job and you charge someone for doing it then you lay yourself open to all the usual penalties that come with that.

Cheers,

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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 3:16 pm   #30
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

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The first thing a court would do is have the item examined by a registered test lab.....several thousand pounds whether it passes or not as it will also require a full report....and a representative of the test house may be required to attend.
Exactly as above.

My knowledge of the case mentioned where the chap went to prison was due to me having a close connection with the person known as the "expert witness" on behalf of the prosecution, who had to attend court on numerous occasions over such cases, but this one was particularly bad. As far as I remember, the chap had no particular previous convictions, but there was more than one death and it was children, so very bad and very sad. It must be well over a decade ago now, but it still sticks in my mind. It wasn't an electrical item as such, or anything like the items we discuss on this forum, but everything about the particular item and the modifications done by the person apply in the same way as they would to electrical items discussed here as regards to what 'could' happen if things went wrong. Something like this happening is extremely rare and I don't think anyone needs to worry too much, other than just being aware of the unlikely consequences of what could possibly happen in a worse case scenario.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 3:35 pm   #31
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

"It can simply be selling a piece of equipment which contravenes the rules..."

And yet, I could (presumably) give the kit free to someone without falling foul of any of these rules. They might have a case against me for negligence (fairly unlikely), but regulation-wise I'd have done nothing wrong

Also, we need a definition of "...by way of business". Is that just defined by the exchange of money? If I repaired a radio for a friend or neighbour without wanting to make any charge, but they insisted on giving me, say £5, or a bottlle of beer, or other payment in kind - does that make it business? Or would the definition require some sort of legal backing - e.g, a business registered for VAT, or where the income is declared for tax purposes.

Like all modern legislation/regulations, too many unanswered questions.

Mike
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 3:41 pm   #32
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

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Originally Posted by Boulevardier View Post
Like all modern legislation/regulations, too many unanswered questions.

Mike
You're not wrong there!
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 4:18 pm   #33
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techman View Post

As far as I remember, the chap had no particular previous convictions, but there was more than one death and it was children, so very bad and very sad. It must be well over a decade ago now, but it still sticks in my mind. It wasn't an electrical item as such, or anything like the items we discuss on this forum,
I do not know the case concerned but based on the quote above it sounds like modifications to a gas installation. If so it is a completely different situation to adding an earth for example.

Peter
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 4:23 pm   #34
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

No it wasn't a gas installation, but I do actually think that there's a lot of similarities between what you can and can't do regarding gas with respect to the discussion here.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 5:58 pm   #35
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulevardier View Post
Like all modern legislation/regulations, too many unanswered questions.

Mike
You're not wrong there!
Indeed. I had quite a long conversation with Trading Standards about this sort of stuff years ago, back when you could make an appointment directly with them. I expected them to be able to give me definitive answers to some very clear (as I thought) questions and to be able to support their answers with references to the legislation, regulations, codes of practice etc. I was really surprised when they said, again and again, "That will be up to the court to decide, on a case by case basis".

It seems you can't get a definitive answer about whether this or that practice is acceptable, or whether this or that action crosses a line, because those answers aren't known. The best you can do is to read the rules, think carefully and form your own view, supported by expert opinions (legal and technical - particularly from a test house) if you can get them, and then trust that the magistrate will agree with you. The more careful and thorough you are and the more supporting paperwork you have, the more likely it is that he/she will.

Cheers,

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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 6:09 pm   #36
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

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Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
The best you can do is to read the rules, think carefully and form your own view, supported by expert opinions (legal and technical - particularly from a test house) if you can get them, and then trust that the magistrate will agree with you. The more careful and thorough you are and the more supporting paperwork you have, the more likely it is that he/she will.

Cheers,

GJ
I think that's just about it in a nutshell!
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 6:09 pm   #37
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

A rule came in many years ago that old equipment with wrong colour mains flexes had to have that flex replaced with currently correct coloured flex. Does that count as a modification, and would that old equipment then have to meet all other current safety requirements?

Stuart

Last edited by stuarth; 2nd Jan 2019 at 6:10 pm. Reason: Typo
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 6:20 pm   #38
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

I think what the regulation actually said was that IF a flex had to be replaced the new flex had to use the new colours.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 6:26 pm   #39
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulevardier
Also, we need a definition of "...by way of business". Is that just defined by the exchange of money? If I repaired a radio for a friend or neighbour without wanting to make any charge, but they insisted on giving me, say £5, or a bottlle of beer, or other payment in kind - does that make it business? Or would the definition require some sort of legal backing - e.g, a business registered for VAT, or where the income is declared for tax purposes.
'Business' is not so much a matter of definition as a matter of fact. A court would weigh the evidence. Did money change hands? If so, was it agreed in advance or via some scale of charges? A gift from a neighbour after you did them a favour does not constitute business. Do you advertise your services? Have you done similar work for others? Lots of legitimate businesses are not registered for VAT; some illegitimate businesses do not declare (all) their income for tax purposes yet they are still businesses.

I suspect that as a general rule something done in the course of business will be held to a higher standard than a favour from a friend or neighbour. However, serious and dangerous incompetence might still get you into trouble even if no money changes hands. A court might look at qualifications, but also at experience: should a reasonable person with that level of knowledge have attempted the work which was carried out? On that basis, it may be acceptable for me to repair my neighbour's radio somewhat imperfectly but not for me to attempt to repair my neighbour's roof. On the other hand, a local roofer can repair their roof (perhaps imperfectly) but should leave their radio alone.

The sad thing about this sort of discussion is that it may deter competent amateurs from making minor safety improvements, yet will have little or no effect on confident idiots.

Gas is a slightly different matter, because there are restrictions on who can do gas work.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 6:52 pm   #40
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Default Re: Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

..You certainly need good eyes and lighting with rigid triple & earth now...BK,BN,GY,WT.
-ironic use of the word 'Harmonisation' if ever there was.
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