Modifications to equipment earthing arrangements.

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by Techman

... An earth could be added to just the isolated deck metalwork, but this would be regarded as an illegal modification and brings it into complying with a different set of regulations which it can never meet, so best left as original ...

Are you saying that there is either definite legislation or case law precedent confirming the bit in bold ? I'd accept that someone might argue in court that adding a safety earth amounts to re-manufacturing the equipment, in which case all the new rules would apply. But I'm not aware that that argument ever has been made and, crucially, judged by the court to be valid. If it hasn't then at present that view is just an opinion, which might be either correct or not (only the courts can decide).

Cheers,

GJ

[Radio Wrangler]

Good practice inside equipment is to keep mains primary connections and wiring away from low voltage/ customer accessible things, to bundle wiring separately. The idea is to make it so that anything which could bridge mains connections to customer accessible connections must connect to earthed metalwork, shielding etc first and pull the fuse before anything dangerous could happen.

Hence the use of safety screens in transformers, grounding cores etc.

David

[Sideband]

Originally Posted by GrimJosef

Are you saying that there is either definite legislation or case law precedent confirming the bit in bold ? I'd accept that someone might argue in court that adding a safety earth amounts to re-manufacturing the equipment, in which case all the new rules would apply. But I'm not aware that that argument ever has been made and, crucially, judged by the court to be valid. If it hasn't then at present that view is just an opinion, which might be either correct or not (only the courts can decide).

Cheers,

GJ

It's an awkward one.....in my normal life as a safety tester I have been told that modifying an item such as above by adding an earth means that the item would now have to meet modern safety requirements (which it can't do) and IF there was a problem in the future and IF someone got injured or there was a fire or .....or etc then it COULD be argued that the person who modified it was responsible since the item no longer met its original specification. However to my knowledge, this has never come up in a lawsuit. The problem is though that because IN THEORY someone could get prosecuted for carrying out an unauthorised modification the general consensus is that it's better to leave things as per the original design......

Of course what you do to your own equipment FOR YOUR OWN USE is up to you. Just don't pass it on to someone else. It is for this reason that I don't agree with earthing the speaker grille of DAC90A radio's....some offered for sale have been so modified.

[GrimJosef]

Thanks R, I thought it hadn't been tested in the courts. It's a shame because I'm sure you're right - folks are put off making simple safety improvements. Instead they decide to protect themselves against a theoretical legal risk by leaving their customers and their family and friends exposed to a real physical one. I can well understand why they do it. It's the same (legal) reason that in some countries off-duty doctors walk past people having heart attacks. But my conscience would struggle with it.

Cheers,

GJ

[John10b]

This is interesting and I would like to understand further the consequences of adding a 3 core mains lead to a vintage Record Player or Radio (AC only).
Do I understand correctly that if it is to remain in your possession it’s ok to do such a thing, but if you are going to sell it on its not?
This is a tricky subject, and I would like clarification if that is possible.
Cheers
John

[GrimJosef]

I believe you can do whatever you like to your own stuff. The only consequence might be that your insurance company could refuse to pay out if you did something which resulted in a death or injury or damage to property.

Whether you can sell a modified item or not depends on whether the item is 'safe' or not and whether it complies with the 'required' regulations. What 'safe' means and which regulations are 'required' is a matter for the courts and it seems that there is little definitive information about this. There are some quite strong opinions though.

Cheers,

GJ

[The Philpott]

I must admit that with the amount of dangerous NEW goods coming into the UK through 'legitimate' sources i don't ever worry that a well thought out and executed safety related mod. will bring an appliance into a different category that has different rules. Life's too short (not trying to be witty there.) It's never possible to envisage the use- or misuse- to which a future owner may subject an appliance, in any case.

I was once working in a depot where the tiled floor was sopping wet from rain soaked shoes marching in and out. I grabbed a mop and removed as much of it as was possible, at which point an 'Ardener' (our old office term for a possessor of a mouth that should be mainly shut) piped up that commencing to clean the floor made me (or the company) liable for any slips and trips that occurred if it were still slippery after i had finished. I can't remember what i said but it was probably along the lines of 'just get the other mop and start helping'.

Dave

[Sideband]

It's the word 'safe'. Even as an approved test lab, we cannot say that equipment is 'safe'. However we CAN say that equipment tested complies with the standard (whatever standard) we have tested it to at the time of testing.

Seriously....these arguments/discussions can go on forever and someone will always disagree. That is why standards were devised....and some people disagree with those as well.......!

[Sideband]

Originally Posted by John10b

Do I understand correctly that if it is to remain in your possession it’s ok to do such a thing, but if you are going to sell it on its not?

That is the nub of it yes

Originally Posted by John10b

This is a tricky subject, and I would like clarification if that is possible.
Cheers
John

It is tricky and there is no real clarification and the arguments only throw up more questions......

That is why the general consensus of opinion is to leave it as the original design.

[John10b]

Thank you all for your replies and opinions.
I note that there are a number of outlets selling vintage equipment with comments such as “ brought up to today’s standards with new 3 core mains lead with 3 amp fuse etc etc...”
One last thought why can’t a well made vintage Record Player with a Mains transformer be safe?
Cheers
John

[Boulevardier]

Originally Posted by Sideband

That is the nub of it yes

It is tricky and there is no real clarification and the arguments only throw up more questions......

That is why the general consensus of opinion is to leave it as the original design.

Suppose, like many, you do repairs for free for friends and relatives. You aren't selling it, or "selling" a repair. How do you stand then?

[Station X]

Originally Posted by John10b

One last thought why can’t a well made vintage Record Player with a Mains transformer be safe?

Cheers, John.

Nothing can be totally safe, this is a concept which some people seem unable to grasp. We could make train travel much safer by reducing the speed of trains to 2 mph, but they'd be totally useless as trains.

Some things are more safe or less safe than others. It depends on how much money you're prepared to spend without making the product unaffordable and what safety features you can incorporate without impairing functionality too much.

[Radio Wrangler]

Originally Posted by John10b

One last thought why can’t a well made vintage Record Player with a Mains transformer be safe?
Cheers
John

It can never be SAFE...... safe without any qualifications.

That record player would definitely be harmful if swallowed... it's simply too big.
It would harm someone if it was chucked in while they were having a bath and it was still plugged in. Dropped from an aeroplane....

With care, it can be made to an acceptable level of safety. Not perfect, but as good as can reasonably achieved.... and that merely swaps one weasel-word for another.

"safe enough" isn't defined ANYWHERE. Mrs Contusion is not going to accept that the record player which killed 'er 'orace was safe enough. If it was safe enough, it wouldn't have killed 'im!

The question comes down to what your lawyers could convince a court with. Being able to stand up and say that said record player met all the required safety standards laid down by government bodies. You have the test house results documents here along with copies of the then current calibration certificates for the test equipment used, and that said record player was not intended for playing mood music in the highly explosive atmosphere of a glue-sniffing den. And such places are illegal anyway.....

Safety standards are very good things for hiding behind. They effectively set a limit on how far you need go. Without them, and in a litigious society all equipment would become infinitely expensive to design out all risks and to insure against any you missed.

Your modified radio may be to a thoroughly excellent level of safety, but it's not the radio that gets judged, it's the paperwork!

David

[broadgage]

Provided any modification is carefully considered and competently done, then I would be very surprised indeed if a court found the modification "illegal"

IMO, it is on a par with fitting smoke detectors to a home previously lacking same. It is a clear improvement, even without bringing to rest of the property up to the latest standards.
Or fitting electric lights to a horse drawn vehicle.

[Sideband]

Originally Posted by John10b

I note that there are a number of outlets selling vintage equipment with comments such as “ brought up to today’s standards with new 3 core mains lead with 3 amp fuse etc etc...”

That statement in itself is incorrect unless the seller has gone to the trouble of spending several thousands of pounds having the item tested by a registered test lab to whatever the current standard for that item is and has the paperwork to prove it....and I guarantee he won't have! Someone just saying that it's 'been brought up to modern safety standards' is meaningless. Some people who mean well are convinced that by just adding an earth, it makes the equipment comply to current standards...as if it's only the earth that is important. In actual fact by adding an earth, not only does it now have to be retested to make his statement valid, it also no longer complies with the standard that existed at the time of manufacture...so it is now non-compliant to any standard......see I told you these arguments/discussions can go on forever.....!!

Originally Posted by John10b

One last thought why can’t a well made vintage Record Player with a Mains transformer be safe?

This will open another can of worms.....

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

Your modified radio may be to a thoroughly excellent level of safety, but it's not the radio that gets judged, it's the paperwork!

...and that hits the nail on the head!

[Sideband]

Originally Posted by broadgage

Provided any modification is carefully considered and competently done, then I would be very surprised indeed if a court found the modification "illegal"

...but would you, as an ordinary person, be prepared to fight your corner in a court? The first thing a court would do is have the item examined by a registered test lab.....several thousand pounds whether it passes or not as it will also require a full report....and a representative of the test house may be required to attend.....another couple of thousands depending on how long he has to be there........

Believe me they know how to charge for all this.....

[Radio_Dave]

I've quoted a paragraph from this document. I don't know if fitting an earth would count as a modification though?


Safety requirements for second-hand or hired electrical equipment

You should be aware of your responsibilities under the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994 if you supply electrical equipment that is:

• second-hand
• modified
• refurbished
• hired/leased
• supplied in furnished premises

Second-hand electrical equipment

The safety of second-hand equipment that is supplied in the course of business - including auctions - is controlled by the regulations. However, it does not need to satisfy the CE marking requirement, and does not need the EC DoC or the technical documentation.
Equipment is classed as second-hand if it has previously been supplied to an end user in the EEA. An end user means the consumer, and includes commercial and industrial consumers.
While there is no mandatory requirement for second-hand equipment to undergo any safety testing, you must only supply equipment that is safe so as to avoid committing an offence under the regulations.
The supply of electrical equipment that is in need of reconditioning or repair to someone who carries on a business of repairing and reconditioning electrical equipment is excluded from the regulations. The sale of articles as scrap is also excluded.

Modified and refurbished electrical equipment

Modified and refurbished equipment are included within the scope of the regulations. Where equipment is refurbished to its original specification, it will be treated as second-hand equipment. However, if the refurbishment uses different types of components, it will be considered as modified electrical equipment.
Modified equipment will need to be assessed by the person carrying out the modifications to determine whether the modification may have introduced hazards or risks which were not covered by the original design. In this case, it is likely that the equipment would be considered as new equipment rather than second-hand equipment.
This will require the person carrying out the modification to carry out all of those exercises required of an original manufacturer. For example, preparation of technical documentation, drawing up an EC DoC and placing the CE marking on the product.


Regards
David

[Techman]

This subject has been discussed a few times on here, the last time just a couple of months or so ago - I think it came up in the radio section.

Exactly as in post #16 above.

A beginner and unqualified amateur isn't going to be (or should I say likely to be) competent enough to do the necessary modifications to an acceptable standard. I've seen first hand amateur attempts at adding isolating transformers and earths to record players, and it's cringe worthy, making the equipment more dangerous than it was before!

I know a real life true story where someone got seven years in prison (I think he was out after about three) for doing "illegal" modifications to something. I believe he even documented it on the internet, with pictures. I did try to find it at the time, but I think 'administrators' quickly removed it after the 'accident' happened. I can't say too much, and it was quite a few years ago now, but death was caused and the chap lost everything and had to move out of the area after his release. I knew someone involved in the case, so know first hand what can happen if you don't have paper qualifications, don't do it right and try to make up your own rules regarding what you can and can't do.

I generally leave things as original, but do sometimes fit a three core mains lead to replace a two core lead on transformer isolated equipment that's had the original lead cut off and I've got a good three core lead to hand. The big difference is that I 'do' have a paper qualification to wave at the judge, and would be prepared to back up what I'd done if the worst ever happened. The reality is that the risk of something happening if the job has been done properly is very remote indeed. It's even fairly unlikely that there would be a serious accident causing injury, damage or death if the job had even been bodged, as we've all seen the horrors that have been got away with in the past. The chap who went to prison was very unlucky - there was probably more chance of him winning the lottery jackpot than what happened to him, but regardless of that, it's always worth being aware of what could potentially happen if you're very unfortunate.

[Boulevardier]

“…if the refurbishment uses different types of components, it will be considered as modified electrical equipment.”
That sounds problematic – what would count as a diiferent type of component? Replacing a two-core mains lead with three-core? Replacing a faulty potentiometer mains switch with a toggle switch? Replacing a 100μF cap.with a 200μF? Adding an audio input socket to an old radio? Substituting a solid state rectifier for a valve rectifier, etc, etc?
Could be a problem for some of the items in the “For sale” thread on this forum…. Unless they were clearly certificated or stated as "Scrap only"!

[Boater Sam]

Originally Posted by Boulevardier

“…if the refurbishment uses different types of components, it will be considered as modified electrical equipment.”
That sounds problematic – what would count as a diiferent type of component? Replacing a two-core mains lead with three-core? Replacing a faulty potentiometer mains switch with a toggle switch? Replacing a 100μF cap.with a 200μF? Adding an audio input socket to an old radio? Substituting a solid state rectifier for a valve rectifier, etc, etc?
Could be a problem for some of the items in the “For sale” thread on this forum…. Unless they were clearly certificated or stated as "Scrap only"!

Regrettably, all of the above.

I do my best based on a working lifetime of experience.
I'm too old to worry. The regulations abounding in the modern world are too complicated for me to fully comply with even if I understood them all.
I shall carry on to the best of my ability and for my continued enjoyment.