Solder - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Mersey_Swimmer · 21st Aug 2007, 10:27 am

For some time now I've been using "modern" solders with new-fangled fluxes and have never been really happy with the quality of the resulting joints - 'orrible, dull, pasty efforts which in my younger days would have been dismissed as dry. I've been in this game for over 40 years so should have just about mastered the art of soldering

and anyway I use a temperature-controlled soldering station.

So today I took the plunge and shelled out for a large reel of good old fashioned genuine "Multicore" 60/40 solder with standard rosin flux. Hopefully this will mean a return to nice, shiny joints that I can see my reflection in.

Hopefully, as maintenance work is RoHS exempt "proper" solder will remain on the market for the foreseeable future. Has anyone else had problems with modern solders? I've heard that there can be problems of compatibility with solder already present in the joint.

Pete

BlakeW · 21st Aug 2007, 10:40 am

I've never actually worked with modern solders (EDIT: by this i mean soldering components onto a board with it); we only have the old 60/40. But i've had a heck of a time desoldering components that have the modern solder.

Station X · 21st Aug 2007, 10:45 am

I made a point of buying large quantities of 60/40 solder when it was rumoured that it was being withdrawn. It's often on special offer from the big suppliers.

jim_jobe · 21st Aug 2007, 12:18 pm

Will "modern" soldering irons still work with 60/40 solder? I've got plenty of solder but wonder what will happen when my iron gives up the ghost or I have to replace the bit.
Jim

Brian R Pateman · 21st Aug 2007, 12:22 pm

A decent temperatur controlled soldering iron or soldering station should be fine with the "proper" 60/40 or this nasty healthy new fangled stuff.

My aging Antex units cope OK at any rate.

Regards,

kalee20 · 21st Aug 2007, 12:46 pm

I am Technical Director of a company which makes many products for the aerospace industry. Lots of our customers are exempt from any change to solder (goind lead-free) and they are using their exemption. Others are actively going lead-free.

We find that lead-free solder erodes bits much faster than the trusty 60/40. We keep separate irons for leaded and lead-free (we also use high melting point, 93.5% lead, 5% tin, 1.5% silver but apart from raising the temperature of a temperatire-controlled iron to 400 deg C there's no compatibility problem here with the soldering iron).

The nicest solders to work with are definitely the 60/40 and 63/37, you can make a joint you can see your reflection in! Rosin flux also seems best - but don't breathe the fumes. There shouldn't be any need to worry about the bits for your iron - if they are designed for lead-free soldere, there will be heavier-duty plating to them, and there may be a cost increase - but they'll work fine with leaded.

XTC · 21st Aug 2007, 1:00 pm

I've found the lead-free solder doesn't flow as well as 60/40 and is better with a slightly higher temperature. If you use lead-free with 60/40 soldered joints for repairs, you're going to end up with an alloy of random ratio.

Lead-free solder was discussed at length a year or two back and the question of stocking up on 60/40 was gone into.

It turned out that the directive really applied to mass produced consumer electronics. There were lots of exceptions for military equipment, medical equipment, telecomms equipment and so on. I emailed a couple of solder manufacturers and their line was that they were going to make 60/40 as long as there was a demand for it - at least some years to come.

That said, I've stocked up on 60/40.

If you are going to have a large reel of solder to last years, it's probably best to keep it in cling film and take smaller reels off when you need them. The smaller reels are handier and the main stock will tarnish less.

Pete.

Welsh Anorak · 3rd Sep 2007, 1:01 pm

Hi
As a repairer, I was advised to use lead-free for all sets we take in. The reasoning here was that, since it melts at a higher temperature, a good joint would be assured. I disagreed, especially when a joint I'd reworked came back having virtually fallen off the board! Currently I only use lead-free on a PCB marked as such. I find if you use the lead-free solder with a silver component it flows quite well and needs a relatively low temperature. The downside is bit wear, and also the PCB you are working on will probably have used conventional lead-free and need a higher temperature. Also, the joints look awful as Pete's discovered.
Luckily, I think we may be all right with the supply problem!
Glyn

Chris55000 · 21st Oct 2007, 10:54 am

Hi!

One quite good solder I use, both on wired and PCB construction is CPC Stock Code SW00074 - this is a Multicomp 60/40 Halide Free Clear Flux type, which I use because normal rosin-core flux sets my asthma off!

Chris Williams

jgj6331 · 29th Oct 2007, 10:55 pm

Chris,

Quite interesting - when I was younger, inhaling the smoke of rosin-core flux would cause me to wheeze too. This has not happened for many years now - but there was a definite connection.

Bill

PJL · 30th Oct 2007, 1:01 am

I recently picked up a box of 1920's homebrew radio bits&pieces and amongst it was some solder - a block of metal in a box!

jgj6331 · 30th Oct 2007, 4:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJL

I recently picked up a box of 1920's homebrew radio bits&pieces and amongst it was some solder - a block of metal in a box!

Perhaps coincidence - blocks like that were used in sealing seams in metal roofs and sealing plumbing joints - there was a small pot (heated by a modified blowlamp) and the melted solder was dipped from it.

As for the 'lead-free' products - I bought 2 spools very cheaply at a radio boot sale and was pleased with my purchase until I attempted to use it. It takes a bit more heat to melt and really doesn't flow well. When it solidifies, it has a dull appearance that resembles a "cold" solder joint. I really can't trust the stuff and had to purchase a new spool of the 'leaded' variety.

kalee20 · 30th Oct 2007, 6:26 pm

Lead-free solder is not easy to use, if you make a joint with it the only way to get it nice is to be sure it is totally lead free. A small amount of lead is really bad news, it makes the joint dull and brittle. The lead present in the solder coating on a component lead is enough to upset things even though it may account for less than 1% of the total metal in the joint. This could be the reason for your problems, jgj6331.

Once you get above about 5% lead, things get better. So, if in doubt, use leaded solder.

Nickthedentist · 30th Oct 2007, 8:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgj6331

When it solidifies, it has a dull appearance that resembles a "cold" solder joint. I really can't trust the stuff...

I opened up new Vestel-sourced Freeview box today. It's really nicely made, but the soldering is shocking, all the joints look dry. But I think that's normal for lead-free. Distinguishing a bad joint by eye is virtually impossible.

dominicbeesley · 30th Oct 2007, 9:57 pm

I've been using it on and off for a while and I too thought I was doing something wrong due to the cruddy dull finish of the joints. However I'm assured by those in the know that that is how they are supposed to appear. Not had one fail yet though for soldering some bigger items I've had to resort to poking in a bit of normal 60/40 along with the lead free. Not sure what effect that has (other than lowering the melting point a little).

21st Aug 2007, 10:27 am	#1
Mersey_Swimmer Retired Dormant Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Runcorn, Cheshire, UK. Posts: 71	Solder For some time now I've been using "modern" solders with new-fangled fluxes and have never been really happy with the quality of the resulting joints - 'orrible, dull, pasty efforts which in my younger days would have been dismissed as dry. I've been in this game for over 40 years so should have just about mastered the art of soldering and anyway I use a temperature-controlled soldering station. So today I took the plunge and shelled out for a large reel of good old fashioned genuine "Multicore" 60/40 solder with standard rosin flux. Hopefully this will mean a return to nice, shiny joints that I can see my reflection in. Hopefully, as maintenance work is RoHS exempt "proper" solder will remain on the market for the foreseeable future. Has anyone else had problems with modern solders? I've heard that there can be problems of compatibility with solder already present in the joint. Pete Last edited by Mersey_Swimmer; 21st Aug 2007 at 10:35 am.

21st Aug 2007, 10:40 am	#2
BlakeW Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 63	Re: Solder I've never actually worked with modern solders (EDIT: by this i mean soldering components onto a board with it); we only have the old 60/40. But i've had a heck of a time desoldering components that have the modern solder.

21st Aug 2007, 10:45 am	#3
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,288	Re: Solder I made a point of buying large quantities of 60/40 solder when it was rumoured that it was being withdrawn. It's often on special offer from the big suppliers. __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

21st Aug 2007, 12:18 pm	#4
jim_jobe Heptode Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ripon, N.Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 782	Re: Solder Will "modern" soldering irons still work with 60/40 solder? I've got plenty of solder but wonder what will happen when my iron gives up the ghost or I have to replace the bit. Jim

21st Aug 2007, 12:22 pm	#5
Brian R Pateman Nonode Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Lake District, Cumbria (CA20) - UK Posts: 2,136	Re: Solder A decent temperatur controlled soldering iron or soldering station should be fine with the "proper" 60/40 or this nasty healthy new fangled stuff. My aging Antex units cope OK at any rate. Regards, __________________ Brian

21st Aug 2007, 12:46 pm	#6
kalee20 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK. Posts: 7,082	Re: Solder I am Technical Director of a company which makes many products for the aerospace industry. Lots of our customers are exempt from any change to solder (goind lead-free) and they are using their exemption. Others are actively going lead-free. We find that lead-free solder erodes bits much faster than the trusty 60/40. We keep separate irons for leaded and lead-free (we also use high melting point, 93.5% lead, 5% tin, 1.5% silver but apart from raising the temperature of a temperatire-controlled iron to 400 deg C there's no compatibility problem here with the soldering iron). The nicest solders to work with are definitely the 60/40 and 63/37, you can make a joint you can see your reflection in! Rosin flux also seems best - but don't breathe the fumes. There shouldn't be any need to worry about the bits for your iron - if they are designed for lead-free soldere, there will be heavier-duty plating to them, and there may be a cost increase - but they'll work fine with leaded.

21st Aug 2007, 1:00 pm	#7
XTC Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 837	Re: Solder I've found the lead-free solder doesn't flow as well as 60/40 and is better with a slightly higher temperature. If you use lead-free with 60/40 soldered joints for repairs, you're going to end up with an alloy of random ratio. Lead-free solder was discussed at length a year or two back and the question of stocking up on 60/40 was gone into. It turned out that the directive really applied to mass produced consumer electronics. There were lots of exceptions for military equipment, medical equipment, telecomms equipment and so on. I emailed a couple of solder manufacturers and their line was that they were going to make 60/40 as long as there was a demand for it - at least some years to come. That said, I've stocked up on 60/40. If you are going to have a large reel of solder to last years, it's probably best to keep it in cling film and take smaller reels off when you need them. The smaller reels are handier and the main stock will tarnish less. Pete.

3rd Sep 2007, 1:01 pm	#8
Welsh Anorak Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North Wales, UK. Posts: 6,921	Re: Solder Hi As a repairer, I was advised to use lead-free for all sets we take in. The reasoning here was that, since it melts at a higher temperature, a good joint would be assured. I disagreed, especially when a joint I'd reworked came back having virtually fallen off the board! Currently I only use lead-free on a PCB marked as such. I find if you use the lead-free solder with a silver component it flows quite well and needs a relatively low temperature. The downside is bit wear, and also the PCB you are working on will probably have used conventional lead-free and need a higher temperature. Also, the joints look awful as Pete's discovered. Luckily, I think we may be all right with the supply problem! Glyn

21st Oct 2007, 10:54 am	#9
Chris55000 Nonode Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walsall Wood, Aldridge, Walsall, UK. Posts: 2,870	Re: Solder Hi! One quite good solder I use, both on wired and PCB construction is CPC Stock Code SW00074 - this is a Multicomp 60/40 Halide Free Clear Flux type, which I use because normal rosin-core flux sets my asthma off! Chris Williams

29th Oct 2007, 10:55 pm	#10
jgj6331 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Macon, Georgia, USA. Posts: 30	Re: Solder Chris, Quite interesting - when I was younger, inhaling the smoke of rosin-core flux would cause me to wheeze too. This has not happened for many years now - but there was a definite connection. Bill

30th Oct 2007, 1:01 am	#11
PJL Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Seaford, East Sussex, UK. Posts: 5,997	Re: Solder I recently picked up a box of 1920's homebrew radio bits&pieces and amongst it was some solder - a block of metal in a box!

30th Oct 2007, 6:26 pm	#13
kalee20 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK. Posts: 7,082	Re: Solder Lead-free solder is not easy to use, if you make a joint with it the only way to get it nice is to be sure it is totally lead free. A small amount of lead is really bad news, it makes the joint dull and brittle. The lead present in the solder coating on a component lead is enough to upset things even though it may account for less than 1% of the total metal in the joint. This could be the reason for your problems, jgj6331. Once you get above about 5% lead, things get better. So, if in doubt, use leaded solder.

30th Oct 2007, 9:57 pm	#15
dominicbeesley Octode Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,885	Re: Solder I've been using it on and off for a while and I too thought I was doing something wrong due to the cruddy dull finish of the joints. However I'm assured by those in the know that that is how they are supposed to appear. Not had one fail yet though for soldering some bigger items I've had to resort to poking in a bit of normal 60/40 along with the lead free. Not sure what effect that has (other than lowering the melting point a little).