UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players

Notices

Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 15th Sep 2018, 8:40 am   #1
Edward Huggins
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK.
Posts: 8,302
Default "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

My first tape recorder (1959) used the then just released, well regarded, Collaro "Studio" 3 speed deck. After that I went on to Tape Decks designed for use as a signal source in Hi Fi systems.

As a result I kind of missed out on the basic single speed decks of the time as typified by the Dansette "Consort" and Fidelity "Argyll". Many such units used the ubiquitous BSR TD2 deck, a simple ECC83/ECL82 circuit and a 7" x 4" elliptical speaker. Frequency responses were often quoted at c.50-10,000 cps.

The attraction of these machines seems that they could concentrate on giving the best possible sound from the 3 3/4 ips tape without the complexities of speed change switching, the associated transport mechanics and just the one simple EQ circuit.

Given that I never really experienced these, then or since, I'm wondering what recall some Members have of such recorders and how good these could sound either on their own or via external amplification?
__________________
Edward.
Edward Huggins is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 11:21 am   #2
paulsherwin
Moderator
 
paulsherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 27,783
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

I had a KB TD2 based recorder in the mid / late 60s, and a couple of friends had similar machines. It worked very well for what it was and I had a lot of fun with it. I wish I had kept some of the tapes.

Machines of this type weren't designed to be hooked up to an external amp and had limited interfaces. The inputs were for a crystal mic or line level signal. There was usually an output for an external speaker and sometimes a high impedance line level output.
paulsherwin is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 12:11 pm   #3
Ted Kendall
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 3,657
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

The TD2 wasn't at all bad as a transport - I think BSR took a long, hard look at the Collaro decks in their complexity and decided instead to combine the utmost mechanical simplicity and robustness with accurate machining where essential. They were, of course, generally mated with the cheapest electronics possible - I expect live chassis working would have been used if they could have got away with it - but others, such as Tutchings Electronics, made effective and economical teaching equpment with them.

Tutchings reviewed a late Fidelity model using this deck in a fancy plastic wrap, which had next to no proper equalisation and rattled to boot. His conclusion was scathing - the deck deserved better than that.
Ted Kendall is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 1:50 pm   #4
julie_m
Dekatron
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Derby, UK.
Posts: 7,735
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

I think the common ECC83 / EM84 / ECL82 / Selenium FW rectifier circuit might originally have come from a Mullard application note. There certainly was no shortage of machines knocked together with the same valve line-up and a ready-made BSR or Collaro tape transport. Some of them were little better than toys; but they seemed to serve a need, and users who outgrew them quickly could choose from a range of more serious machines.

The need for tape recorders to interface to ancillary devices -- possibly including a hand-held microphone -- made live chassis construction impractical; though somebody, somewhere is bound to have tried it anyway.
__________________
If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.
julie_m is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 1:56 pm   #5
paulsherwin
Moderator
 
paulsherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 27,783
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

The performance of the basic TD2 machines was actually pretty good by the standards of the day. They didn't pretend to be hifi but very few people had even heard hifi reproduction then. They certainly sounded as good as a typical portable record player of the time. The TD2 has good W&F figures, and the simple electronics allowed relatively high quality recordings to be made and played back.
paulsherwin is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 4:08 pm   #6
martin.m
Hexode
 
martin.m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Bishop Auckland, County Durham, UK.
Posts: 373
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

As a teenager in the 1960s, I had one of these British made valve tape recorders fitted with the BSR TD2 deck. I think it was an HMV model 2202. Nearly all my music was on reel to reel tapes which were either recorded from Radio One 247m or from LPs borrowed from school friends. I had fitted an RCA phono socket across the volume control of an elderly Regentone radiogram that I had been given and recorded music "directly" rather that use the microphone. It was a 4 track machine and I could fit four LPs onto a reel of tape. Sound quality was quite good through the 8x5 inch speaker, though the deck was a little noisy.

I have a soft spot for these old machines and have a few in my collection, having repaired and serviced them. Pictured below are Ferguson and Fidelity models, both from the early to mid 1960s.

Regards
Martin
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Ferguson.jpg
Views:	532
Size:	89.4 KB
ID:	169336   Click image for larger version

Name:	Fidelity.jpg
Views:	330
Size:	77.9 KB
ID:	169337  
__________________
Regards
Martin
martin.m is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 4:42 pm   #7
ParcGwyn
Hexode
 
ParcGwyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Aberystwyth, Wales, UK.
Posts: 358
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

As a child I had a Fidelity Argyll that my father obtained from a scrap man, he then repaired it and I found the sound quality very adequate for needs right into my teens.


Dave

GW7ONS
ParcGwyn is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 5:23 pm   #8
Restoration73
Nonode
 
Restoration73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Surbiton, SW London, UK.
Posts: 2,801
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Following on from a battery toy recorder with 3" reels, my first serious machine was also a
Fidelity TR6 Playmaster, which still works. It uses EL84 o/p so reasonable volume.
The main TD2 limitations being the 5.75" reel size and single speed, although the more elaborate 3 speed 7" reel TD10 deck was available.
My next machine, Akai 4000DS, seemed luxurious at the time, followed by A77.
Restoration73 is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 7:54 pm   #9
Ted Kendall
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 3,657
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Quote:
Originally Posted by julie_m View Post
The need for tape recorders to interface to ancillary devices -- possibly including a hand-held microphone -- made live chassis construction impractical; though somebody, somewhere is bound to have tried it anyway.
I think a Geloso with a live chassis turned up here a while ago
Ted Kendall is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 10:19 pm   #10
Hartley118
Nonode
 
Hartley118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 2,196
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Like Edward, my first tape recorder used the excellent Collaro Studio 3-speed deck. I was a year later though in 1960. The amplifier was a Mullard design Stern Radio HF/TR3 kit with proper tuned inductor HF equalisation for all speeds.

Performance was similar to a Ferrograph: ie excellent at 7.5 ips, adequate at 3.75 ips, but pretty hopeless at 1.875 ips. I (distantly) recall some experience of my fellow students' tape recorders. I had the impression that some Continental machines such as Philips and Grundig were rather better optimised for 3.75 ips than mine - lower wow and somewhat better frequency response (probably better heads and more HF EQ boost). Mine, however, was unbeatable on live music recording at 7.5 ips.

Cheaper machines using the BSR deck were seen as downmarket. ISTR they varied a great deal, with some making a much more serious attempt at record/replay EQ than others.

What I also recall is that EMItape, which I used as an obvious choice at 7.5 ips, was pretty poor at lower speeds, giving high modulation noise. Philips and BASF tapes proved much cleaner at lower speeds.

Martin
__________________
BVWS Member
Hartley118 is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 10:52 pm   #11
jamesperrett
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Liss, Hampshire, UK.
Posts: 1,870
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

One of the first reel to reels I used was a Peto Scott with the ubiquitous TD2 deck that my father bought secondhand in the early 70's. I remember being really frustrated by the slow wind/rewind times and I don't think we used it very much as my cassette recorder was more convenient and sounded just as good (through an extension speaker).

My interest in reel to reels was re-kindled when I bought a Brennel MkV for a fiver a few years later. I had no complaints about the wind/rewind speed on that!
jamesperrett is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2018, 11:18 pm   #12
ricard
Octode
 
ricard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lund, Sweden
Posts: 1,631
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
The performance of the basic TD2 machines was actually pretty good by the standards of the day. They didn't pretend to be hifi but very few people had even heard hifi reproduction then. They certainly sounded as good as a typical portable record player of the time.
I believe Bang & Olufsen took the TD2 chassis and married it with well designed electronics and possibly even some improved mechanical parts to create the respectable 'Belcanto' machine. Although considering the amount of work they put into it, it's strange that they went for the TD2 to start with.
ricard is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 12:28 am   #13
BillDWVA
Pentode
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tenby, Pembrokeshire, Wales, UK.
Posts: 139
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

One of the first reel-to-reel machines I had as a schoolboy was a ‘Walter’ that someone must have been throwing out and I somehow acquired; similar to the one in this picture. It was a terrible performer as it’s pinch roller had gone rock hard. I was always dismayed with it and the mechanism had a permanent magnet erase head that swung into contact with the tape when in record mode... arrrghh! I cannot remember what became of it .. no fond memory I’m afraid to say!
I had a Fidelity ‘Braemar’ 4-track for a while but it had been badly mucked about with and I never actually ever got it to record which again caused much dismay .... In those days ( I would have been about 12 or 13) I lacked the skill and facilities to properly fault-find and it probably only had a duff component in its oscillator circuit..
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	F07A6F97-1ECF-45ED-AD85-61562697CE55.jpg
Views:	222
Size:	75.4 KB
ID:	169355  
BillDWVA is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 2:00 am   #14
Refugee
Dekatron
 
Refugee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 5,549
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

I have got a Fidelity one with a TD2 in it.
The output transformer is duff but it did get audio on the grid of the output valve I think.
I have a Phillips restored and one full of goo and two Grundig ones unrestored.
Refugee is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 4:57 am   #15
TonyDuell
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK.
Posts: 5,188
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
I think a Geloso with a live chassis turned up here a while ago
They certainly exist, I have one.

The chassis/control switch are wired so that if the mains plug (2 pin) is one way round the chassis is live with the tape running. If the mains plug is the other way round it's live when the tape is stopped. You can't win. There are 2 jack sockets, one for microphone input, the other for speaker output. The latter, I think, is isolated from the mains by the output transformer, the former most certainly is 'live' I believe the original microphone, which I don't have, was fully insulatated.

Accessories listed in the manual (as far as I can understand it, I don't know Italian) include a pickup coil to record from the stray magnetic field of the output transformer in a radio, an audio isolating transformer and a mains isolating transformer.
TonyDuell is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 7:50 am   #16
Ted Kendall
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 3,657
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDWVA View Post
One of the first reel-to-reel machines I had as a schoolboy was a ‘Walter’ that someone must have been throwing out and I somehow acquired..
The Walter 101 - I had one, too, which somebody wanted rid of - I wonder why? Ghastly - I had a Grundig TK8 at the time, and the comparison was risible. Walter made stuff under their own name roughly from 1957 to 1960, when they foundered in the wake of the cheaper and better TD2-based machines. Their last effort was an indescribably bad transistor portable yclept the Metropolitan. with wow approaching 1%.

It is interesting to look at the HiFi Yearbook for 1961 - the tape recorder section is dominated by BSR and Collaro based machines, made by a horde of under-the-arches outfits, many of which disappeared in a short time.
Ted Kendall is online now  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 10:26 am   #17
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,526
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

I've always thought that the simplest and most reliable deck mechanically, would have been a single speed three motor unit. Unfortunately motors cost more than bits of bent tin and rubber bands. Add the wiper fed pot feeding the two reel motors to go smoothly from full ahead to full astern and you could get away without any reel brakes as well.
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 11:17 am   #18
dazzlevision
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Near Swindon, North Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,595
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Bush made a rather nice open reel tape recorder (their only one); model TP50, circa 1961. I bought one a few years ago.

Although it uses the BSR TD2 deck, the electronics is a cut above the usual, with two EF86s, an ECL86, an EM87 "magic eye" and a metal HT rectifier. The "wired chassis" construction is to the usual Bush high standard and the first EF86 stage has an anti-microphony valve holder mount. The audio output transformer is also of a generous size and there are separate treble and bass controls (and input mixing on record, IIRC).

The tape deck was also slightly modified to provide a "pause" control.

Last edited by dazzlevision; 16th Sep 2018 at 11:30 am.
dazzlevision is online now  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 12:25 pm   #19
Ted Kendall
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 3,657
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herald1360 View Post
I've always thought that the simplest and most reliable deck mechanically, would have been a single speed three motor unit
If it's done properly, couldn't agree more. Rubber bands and bent tin are best avoided on a quality tape transport. However, where costs are critical, arranging constant linear rather than constant angular tape tension is more difficult than with a simple gravity clutch, causing wow problems towards the end of the reel.. There is also the question of switching three motors quietly and safely between modes, whilst a single motor can, and usually does, run continuously.

Such decks did exist - the Truvox Mk3, the Lane, the Motek - all pretty rough, although they did wind at sensible speeds.

I think where BSR got it right was in their ruthless paring of complexity, which paid dividends in terms of reliability - even today, solid grease aside, they seldom give trouble.
Ted Kendall is online now  
Old 16th Sep 2018, 1:35 pm   #20
barrymagrec
Octode
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Morden, Surrey, UK.
Posts: 1,552
Default Re: "Basic" R2R Tape Recorders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herald1360 View Post
I've always thought that the simplest and most reliable deck mechanically, would have been a single speed three motor unit. Unfortunately motors cost more than bits of bent tin and rubber bands. Add the wiper fed pot feeding the two reel motors to go smoothly from full ahead to full astern and you could get away without any reel brakes as well.
A switched pole capstan motor gives you two speed operation without additional mechanical complexity and switching DC to the spool motors could give effective braking if a bit of thought was given to it.
barrymagrec is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:15 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.