Anyone here with knowledge of archive films and the BFI?

[ianm]

A bit off-topic for this forum, but I hope that there might be an expert within our group who could offer a little guidance.

Using the search tool at the British Film Institute website, I have confirmed the existence of a set of short films that were made for TV broadcast in 1961. I understand that these are the only known copies and have not seen the light of day since the material was originally broadcast all those years ago.

On behalf of a small group of fellow enthusiasts, I have made an initial approach to the BFI to explore the possibility of these films being retrieved from the archive and transferred to digital media, with a view to commercial release. Within a short time, I receive what appeared to be a stock reply, stating that these films are present in the archive as film stock, but unavailable for viewing or commercial release. This response is pretty much what I anticipated and of course didn’t address what I was actually asking. In due course, I will open further dialogue, but I’d first like to understand is how things work at the BFI, in respect of archive material being selected for digital transfer, plus of course any restoration and repair work that is presumably necessary. I suppose there must be decision makers within the BFI who control such matters. I wonder also if it is possible to offer funding in order to make things happen.

So, is there anyone on here with inside knowledge of the BFI, or any useful contacts within the organisation? Ultimately, I appreciate that I am probably attempting to move a mountain in terms of what I am aspiring to do, but I don’t want to give up without at least exploring any possible avenues of enquiry. Any hints or tips gratefully received.

[cheerfulcharlie]

Not an expert ..but my 10 pence worth.

In my experience which dates a few years ago.
The fact that the BFI say they have it..does not necessarily mean they have it so to speak....they appear to have just lazily copied old paper records to the site.
I got the impression that they are rather more interested in movies than TV.. ...so when say 50 frames of Charlie Chaplin picking his nose is discovered, it is meticulously restored with a big campaign to follow..They might show an interest in TV if it is say the discarded works of the great Luvvy writer Arty Farty.. meanwhile 70 odd years of other television programmes that have been donated remain unseen.

The "unfortunately the programme you require is in negative film or 405 line form and funds have not been allocated to transfer it" is a stock reply and probably just to make you go away and not bother them... I know someone who had the same request as you and when he said he would pay for a digital transfer of the negative.. they quoted £1000 which was a few years ago when £1k was considerably more value than it is today.

If your programme was made by the BBC or ITV then they may have themselves and if they have, they will give you a bespoke DVD for about £200, however they will only give you one if you prove say.. your Uncle Bert worked on the programme or you have an interesting event to which it can contribute...they will also make you sign a licencing agreement usually.

If you really want to know if your programme actually exists then the site 'TV Brain' is kept up to date by enthusiasts with a great database.

As an example I typed 'The Worker' into the search engine at these were the results

https://www.tvbrain.info/tv-archive?...&type=lostshow

This site 'TV Brain' is run by ' The Kaleidoscope Org' which contacting them is probably your best first port of call in tracking down your programme and even helping you get it onto to your screen, they are dedicated enthusiasts not pension chasing bureaucrats.

[emeritus]

Copyright my have something to do with it. They may well have a physical copy, but possession of a copy does not necessarily mean they also own the copyright. I remember reading that the BBC ( or possibly the BFI) had a copy of the circa 1960 BBC broadcast of 1984 featuring Peter Cushing as Winston Smith, and that was held only as an archive copy with no right to rebroadcast or issue copies without permission from the rights owners. Circa 1990 the BBC started issuing copies of the late Alexis Korner's radio programmes until stopped by legal action by his heirs, who found that the original contract had stated that the BBC had only been entitled to make a single recording for a limited number of repeat broadcasts and subsequently for keeping as an archive copy. Similar conditions might apply to the BFI's archive copies. On the other hand, according the section 14 (2) of the UK Copyright etc. Act 1988, copyright in a broadcast expires 50 years after the end of the calendar year in which the broadcast was first made, so in principle anything first broadcast in 1967 or earlier should now be out of copyright. That is my understanding of the situation existing in 2007: the law may well have changed since.

[barrymagrec]

Digitisation of Archive footage is time consuming and thus expensive, I imagine they prioritise their limited resources based on interest and perceived importance, BFI is in any case a law unto itself in my limited experience.

[red16v]

Might I suggest you join and ask at this site given that the programme you are interested in appears to be television related. The site is regularly frequented by the people who run the Kaleidoscope organisation, and by Dick Fiddy who works for the BFI on their tv archiving operation and often posts there. The site is frequented by many people who take an active interest in programmes of the vintage you’re interested in.

http://www.mausoleumclubforum.org.uk/phpBB3/

You’ll obviously have to open up about the programmes you’re actually interested in.

[ianm]

Thank you, all, for your valuable comments and advice.

Things have now moved on a little further, as info received today from the BFI suggests that we could move forward with this, albeit rather expensively. It was a little disappointing to discover that the pricing for restoration and transfer is applied per reel of film, rather than running time. This puts me at something of a disadvantage, as the 11 films in question each have a running time of only 15 minutes!

There's also the matter of how things might pan out with the copyright holder. The BFI have advised me to contact the copyright holder directly.

[emeritus]

My understanding is that a standard reel of 35mm film is a nominal 1000', which runs for 10 mins at sound speed. The 16mm prints of the films I used to project for the film club when I was a student, were normally supplied on 1600' spools that ran for around 40 mins at sound speed. Spool sizes were standardised as they were treated as "common user" items by film libraries: you were instructed not to rewind films before returning them, so the first reel was returned wound on your spool, and you ended up with the spool that the last reel had been wound on.

[cheerfulcharlie]

Originally Posted by ianm

Thank you, all, for your valuable comments and advice.

Things have now moved on a little further, as info received today from the BFI suggests that we could move forward with this, albeit rather expensively. It was a little disappointing to discover that the pricing for restoration and transfer is applied per reel of film, rather than running time. This puts me at something of a disadvantage, as the 11 films in question each have a running time of only 15 minutes!

There's also the matter of how things might pan out with the copyright holder. The BFI have advised me to contact the copyright holder directly.

You probably didn't read my previous post but you really should contact Kaleidoscope Org about this...they may be able to save you money as they know which levers to pull when dealing with the BFI....or even source some ready made material and sort out the rights for your show...after all once you have it digitized you have saved the BFI and future interest a great deal of time and money.

[ColinTheAmpMan1]

This may be completely useless information, but I thought that the BFI's TV "museum" was located in Bradford. BFI Southbank in London (formerly the National Film Theatre) is a quite interesting place and shows some excellent movies. It used to have the NFT3 theatre for TV stuff, but maybe it has been transferred back to London after going to Bradford.
My wife has been a member of the BFI for years.
Colin.

[ianm]

Originally Posted by cheerfulcharlie

you really should contact Kaleidoscope Org about this

Hi Cheerfulcharlie, Thank you for the timely reminder. Of course, I am very keen to explore any avenues of enquiry and will definitely follow this up as part of the overall activity. I live in hope that what I am trying to do will trigger the interest of someone influential within the world of archive films, or the BFI itself, who might help to give this some momentum.

For the sake of keeping my opening piece as short as possible, I made no reference to the material I am chasing. If anyone is interested, here is my story. For the last forty years, I have been a fan of popular/classic pianist Winifred Atwell, who enjoyed her peak of fame during the 1950s and 1960s. Despite regular television appearances during these years, surprisingly little film or television material of her is now available, or even in existence. This is a regular topic of conversation within a Facebook discussion forum to which I belong, alongside a number of other Winifred Atwell fans across the globe. In fact, one of our members is Winnie's great niece, who is keen to find out as much as possible about the life of her great aunt.

So, within the BFI archive, we have confirmed the existence of approximately 11 episodes of The Winifred Atwell Show from 1961. There was an earlier TV show by the same name during 1956, for which no known footage exists, and indeed it might have gone out live in any case. In view of this, the confirmed existence of this 1961 material is nothing short of tantalising for me. Each episode is just 15 minutes long and Winnie plays five pieces each time, without any duplication between episodes. We do have a list of tunes relating to each episode, so at least we have a good idea about the content. Notice that there are some gaps in the dates below and this is due to the relevant material not existing within the archive.

The Winifred Atwell Show[24/06/61] - Television date: 1961-06-24
The Winifred Atwell Show[01/07/61] - Television date: 1961-07-01
The Winifred Atwell Show[08/07/61] - Television date: 1961-07-08
The Winifred Atwell Show[15/07/61] - Television date: 1961-07-15
The Winifred Atwell Show[22/07/61] - Television date: 1961-07-22
The Winifred Atwell Show[29/07/61] - Television date: 1961-07-29
The Winifred Atwell Show[05/08/61] - Television date: 1961-08-05
The Winifred Atwell Show[19/08/61] - Television date: 1961-08-19
The Winifred Atwell Show[02/09/61] - Television date: 1961-09-02
The Winifred Atwell Show[09/09/61] - Television date: 1961-09-09
The Winifred Atwell Show[16/09/61] - Television date: 1961-09-16

[cheerfulcharlie]

Ah yes Winifred Atwell..when my dad bought a radiogram, it came with some records ...one which was good old Winni, I thought it was great (Pye Golden Guinea) and played it to death as a kid.

Apparently her last surviving programme appearance was on 'The Wheeltappers and Shunter's Club' ITV circa 1974 and in colour.

Stop press ..oh my goodness here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbdarK4zc0k

She must be long due for an appraisal?

[ianm]

I am pleased to say that the Wheeltappers and Shunters episode featuring Winnie is readily available for viewing. I've watched it on YouTube. However, a search on TV Brain reveals that there may have been something even later still, but for which no footage is known to exist.

BIG BAND SPECIAL
17.08.1978 With Syd Lawrence and his Orchestra, Roy Marsden, Marie Toland, The Serenaders, Winifred Atwell (missing)

[cheerfulcharlie]

Apparently her 1961 series was Australian and that is probably why it is not mentioned on the 'TV Brain' ..

[ianm]

Actually, it is all documented at TV Brain, but under the title of The Amazing Miss 'A'. No one is quite certain whether it's that, or The Winifred Atwell Show. Of course, we'd know immediately if we could actually get to see any of the material. I, too, believe it was shot in Australia, but intended for viewing in the UK. An Australian friend has looked into this locally, but has found nothing to suggest that any of this footage exists in Australia.

Something I've just picked up from TV Brain is that the production company may have been Associated-Rediffusion, rather than ATV, which was what I understood originally.

[Peter88gate]

I do hope you manage to get somewhere with getting this Winifred Atwell material digitised. When I was a youngster, my father had many of Winnie's recordings as he was himself a pub pianist in the evenings. He used to play some of her pieces as part of his repertoire!

Do keep us informed how you get on.

Peter

[cheerfulcharlie]

Originally Posted by ianm

Actually, it is all documented at TV Brain, but under the title of The Amazing Miss 'A'. No one is quite certain whether it's that, or The Winifred Atwell Show. Of course, we'd know immediately if we could actually get to see any of the material. I, too, believe it was shot in Australia, but intended for viewing in the UK. An Australian friend has looked into this locally, but has found nothing to suggest that any of this footage exists in Australia.

Something I've just picked up from TV Brain is that the production company may have been Associated-Rediffusion, rather than ATV, which was what I understood originally.

The AR archive is one of the great lost archives- however the BFI did take a selection of AR progs..which hopefully includes yours.

AR had a subsidiary company called 'Global TV' which distributed AR progs around the world, but this was disbanded in the early 1970s as the general notion was that there was no future in selling of mainly B/W progs... Global re-emerged doing other film things.

AR's licensing company was/is ? called 'Archbuild'..however they seem to have little clue as to where their programmes actually are but "give us some money if you find one".

[ianm]

I have just written directly to Dick Fiddy about all of this! Fingers crossed for a reply.

[Terry_VK5TM]

I'm assuming you are aware of this (NFSA = National Film and Sound Archive):

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/c...inifred-atwell

[crackle]

My KB EWR60 wire recorder came with a recording of a part of a Winifred Atwell show (the "Black and White Rag", the tune was used for the theme to the Pot Black TV show) . You can hear a sample of it here. Click on the middle audio clip. https://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_audi...odel_id=213106

Mike

[ianm]

Originally Posted by Terry_VK5TM

I'm assuming you are aware of this

As you might expect, I am, but thank you for mentioning it. The material at the NFSA site is being added to on a regular basis, so I'm keeping any eye on the site to see what else might turn up.

Originally Posted by crackle

My KB EWR60 wire recorder came with a recording of a part of a Winifred Atwell show

What a fascinating find! Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Presumably this is the full extent of the material that you have for that particular broadcast on this wire recording?

The original broadcasters seem to have practically no recordings of Winifred Atwell radio shows, but I suspect there could be a number of home recordings such as the one you've discovered, dotted about here and there.