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Old 13th May 2016, 6:06 pm   #1
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Default Starting My Journey

Hi,

I've learned a great deal from these pages. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. Its given me a lot of knowledge in a short time.

I'm just starting to look for a hifi. It's been years since I owned anything (kids!) and I'd like the best sounding turntable/amplifier/speakers that I can get. Same as everyone, I guess!

Although I learned a great deal I'm confused about where to start. My idea of a great sound goes back to some friends who had things like a Thorens turntable and a Quad 33/303 with Tannoy speakers. One friend had a Linn Axis turntable and that had a "big" sound that blew me away. I've never heard anything like it since.

My first question is trying to understand the relative quality of things. For instance, which is better - Quad 33/303 or a Marantz PM6004?

I would also really appreciate your thoughts on a modestly priced quality set up might consist. I know that's almost impossible but some ideas and how they would compare soundwise would be appreciated.
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Old 13th May 2016, 7:38 pm   #2
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

If you want the best quality for your money, the first thing you should do is forget about anything with a 'reputation'.

For an amp, go for something Japanese in the 85-95 era. Anything from Marantz or Rotel will be fine, though less well known brands like Akai can be bargains. The Cambridge Audio amps sold in Richer Sounds in the 90s are very good. Sony amps are generally overpriced for what they are. Amps from this era may not contain a magnetic cartridge input stage but these are easy to build using a dual op-amp and a few other components.

For your record deck, either go for a 70s/80s Japanese deck (direct drive models are very underpriced in the UK) or a current production deck from Project. All Pioneer decks are seriously overpriced now.

For a CD player, go for late 80s/90s Philips/Marantz. The Marantz CD42 still crops up for very little money. It is a CD52 with a simpler front panel and no remote, though a CD52 remote or a universal will work fine.

For a tuner, look on eBay for something local to you collection only. Lots of mid market AM/FM tuners sell for almost nothing.

For speakers, again eBay local pickup is the way to go. You will find lots of 80s/90s Missions, Tannoys, B&Ws etc turning up for £25 or less.

Good luck!
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Old 13th May 2016, 7:45 pm   #3
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

""If you want the best quality for your money, the first thing you should do is forget about anything with a 'reputation'.""

I like it

Lawrence.
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Old 13th May 2016, 8:25 pm   #4
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Anything heavy will more as likely be good, no point making a cheap thing out of lots of stuff. Loudspeakers are a particular point to this 'rule'.
 
Old 13th May 2016, 9:21 pm   #5
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But watch out for sneaky bits of ballast in cheap gear. Mild steel plate is cheap enough to do that with
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Old 13th May 2016, 10:36 pm   #6
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

A recommendation I would make is Jap amp with British speakers. Jap and Jap can be a bit bright, all top and bottom, but little in the middle.
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Old 13th May 2016, 10:54 pm   #7
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

It got a smile out of me too.

There is a special sort of satisfaction in getting some gear sorted and going that is overlooked or even pooh-poo'ed by the pundits, yet works very well indeed. It can also save you a great deal of money. There is plenty of junk out there, and lots of things best avoided. The trick is to find the stuff which is actually good, but unfashionable.

Have fun!

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Old 14th May 2016, 12:00 am   #8
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If you want the best quality for your money, the first thing you should do is forget about anything with a 'reputation'.

Yes - Akai are underrated and undersold, The Pioneer PL12 deck is very good and usually good value and a Shure M75 shouldn't cost a fortune. BIG British speakers from the 60s and 70s are ludicrously underpriced for the quality - be prepared to pick them up.

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Old 14th May 2016, 12:28 am   #9
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I would dispute that Pioneer PL12s are good value nowadays. They were only ever a budget deck, and while they're undeniably a good product, they fetch ridiculous prices because of that 'reputation' mentioned earlier. There is a halo effect across all Pioneer decks which causes them all to sell for more than they should.

A similar effect can be seen with Sansui stuff. There were some good Sansui amps in the late 70s which are now very highly regarded, but the halo effect means that all Sansui products achieve premium prices, even though their performance is broadly similar to everything else at the same industry price point. (I own a Sansui TU-X501L tuner, which is perfectly decent but not audiophile magic).

Another overrated brand is NAD, particularly the very cheap'n'cheerful 3020i amplifier which now sells for ridiculous money.
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Old 14th May 2016, 12:45 am   #10
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I would dispute that Pioneer PL12s are good value nowadays.

You could be right there - I couldn't think of a better example. Which Japanese decks did you have in mind? I almost mentioned Sansui (I had an AU 101 which did sterling service for lots of years and when I came to sell it, I was amazed by what it fetched) so, yes, they are over-hyped these days. I have been pleasantly surprised by a few very cheap and cheerful Aiwa decks - did they make a properly good one?
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Old 14th May 2016, 1:00 am   #11
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

I use a Toshiba QR-660, though I'm not a big vinyl enthusiast. All the mainstream Japanese manufacturers made good decks at that time. They aren't as good as the Thorens' and Linns which are rightly revered, but they are pretty damn good, and they cost very little now. Presumably many of them were made by Japanese OEMs like Sankyo.
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Old 14th May 2016, 1:02 am   #12
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I would have to disagree, my ten pence worth.

British or German origin record deck/cartridge
Japanese cassette deck
European CD player ( yes Philips is about it in Europe LOL)
British amp or the once bargain basement NAD 3020 series
British or American speakers
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Old 14th May 2016, 1:11 am   #13
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The NAD 3020 series was a good budget amp but it was made in Taiwan and the cost cutting shows. It now sells for silly money. A Cambridge Audio A1 will sound as good and can be bought for a fifth of the price.
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Old 14th May 2016, 1:11 am   #14
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

If you're reasonably handy you can put a first class turntable together by finding unfashionable items at very reasonable prices. I must admit to a fondness for old idler drive machines and recently acquired a Collaro 2010 in very good order but missing its arm. I then found one of A.Sugden's Connoisseur SAU2 pick up arms and with a bit of judicious "fettling" mated them together. I would say that neither item is particularly swooned over by the audiophool cognoscenti but when I installed one of Audio Technicas cheap AT95E cartridges it sounded excellent. I had to make a plinth but luckily I had some suitable offcuts lying around which served the purpose. In total it cost £115, which is quite probably less than a reasonable PL12 will fetch these days, but I would be very surprised if it couldn't easily outperform the Pioneer and in addition there's the satisfaction of owning something which is a little "left field" with a totally different look from the Japanese turntables.
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Old 14th May 2016, 6:48 am   #15
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I suspect that this thread might run and run... Here's my tupenny worth. For the amplifier I recommend the Pioneer A400 with MM/MC input - just read the historic reviews. For speakers you can't ever go wrong with Tannoys. I suggest floorstanders for their overall sound. If you buy standmounts, do take into account the cost of the stands. For Tuners a Denon. CD players - Marantz "tweaked" versions. For Cassette decks Yamaha or Teac. Reel-to-Reel go for Philips or Akai. As to turntables I don't really know where to start as there are so many options - I'll be somewhat predictable and suggest a Rega Planar 3 with an Ortofon cartridge. None of these are exotic or overpriced. Edward
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Old 14th May 2016, 8:49 am   #16
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

I have to admit bias as I am a Quad fan from way back.

I have a modern setup with an Elie and QSP power amp, but am now slowly assembling a Quad collection. 33/303, Quad II/22/FM.

Although you are just starting, pride of ownership is high with Quad stuff, and it is plentiful, particularly the 33 / 303. As are the 606, 909 and associated preamps. You don't get remote control with the earlier kit. All their offerings are well made.

Perhaps more important is that Quad still service their stuff. I just sent an ancient FM tuner to them and the fixed labour cost for the service is GBP 48. I still can't believe it that they support equipment made 60 years ago. I had checked the costs of one other service guy and he wanted several hundred Euros.

Does Quad stuff sound better than Marantz? I don't know, but my impression is that the Quad sound is very good but perhaps not the best.

Good luck with it.
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Old 15th May 2016, 8:14 pm   #17
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Default Re: Starting My Journey

Brilliant! Thanks to veryone.

"Forget about anything with a reputation" - awesome. I really hadn't thought about things in that way but I absolutely get the idea.

"Jap amp with British speakers" - I'll remember that.

The biggest surprise to me was suggesting getting a direct drive turntable. I thought that the only way to go was belt drive - I was obvioulsy wrong.

Really interesting to know that Quad will service anything they've made and will carry out a service for a fixed fee. May encourage me to go for a quad - I thought they would be a fortune to send back for service.

Many more tips I've noted, too. Again, your help is wonderful.

Any further specific model recommendations on those Japanese 85-95 amps and the Japanese direct drive turnables would be truly appreciated.
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Old 15th May 2016, 9:14 pm   #18
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DD turntables were always unpopular in the UK market. The decks and arms popular 35 years ago are pretty much the same ones which sell for vast sums now. This attitude wasn't shared in other large markets like the US where DD decks were very highly regarded. Some UK buyers weren't aware that DD decks were supposed to sound awful so bought them anyway, and when these appear on the secondhand market today they sell for very little. I use one. All the Japanese big boys made them and they were usually at the top of their ranges. They didn't care if the Brits were sniffy about them because they were mostly selling to the Americans.

Don't misunderstand me here - the classic German, Swiss and British belt drive decks were and are very good, and in most cases will sound somewhat better than a Japanese DD deck, but the difference in price today is absolutely huge and the difference in performance relatively small.

It's difficult to recommend a specific Japanese amp or manufacturer because there are so many models, but most have very similar electronics inside. The ones with more output have bigger power supplies. Marantz and Rotel dominated UK sales but there were amps by Technics, Sansui, Sony, TEAC, Akai, Pioneer, JVC, Yamaha, Harman/Kardon, Denon and many more. If it was made in Japan and marketed as a serious hifi product it's probably OK.
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Old 15th May 2016, 11:18 pm   #19
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A few years ago I had a few Japanese DD decks pass through my hands - a Technics pair and a Gemini pair which I couldn't resist at car boot sales, just to try them out (I had noted the audiophilistine scorn and wondered if there was any foundation in fact - there wasn't). I connected them up to my Radford set-up, which would have discovered any serious flaws, and they played very well - and represented fantastic value!
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Old 15th May 2016, 11:55 pm   #20
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Android,

You're getting tons of recommendations, but the key to great hifi on a budget is availability. Any of these recommended things will work very well for you. What you hav to do is to build up a mental database. There is some complete junk which needs to be recognised and avoided. There is good stuff worth having that you need to snap up if you come across it at a decent price, and there is good stuff that is unlikely to be cheap. Smell a rat and check it's not a scam, but you wouldn't want to miss something at an exceptionally low price. There is also, of course, complete crap at high prices, but that's under the junk heading already.

Internet auctions put things in front of the largest audiences, and the selling price is set by what the most desperate bidder will pay for one. The buy it now prices are set by optimistic vendors to be somewhat over what they'd expect to get. Antiquey shoppes are usually on the make and after a small fortune. The bargains seem to be in small local adverts, freecycle, and car boot sales. This means finding a bargain most usually involves more effort than google-ing.

Good luck!

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