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Old 5th Mar 2019, 2:21 pm   #1
SteveCG
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Default Help with some FM Tx opening dates

I've tried without success to find when the following 3 BBC VHF/FM transmitters started carrying Radio 2, Radio 3 and Radio 4. Can anybody help please?

Morecambe Bay
Kendal
Windermere

By the way, I know that Morecambe Bay and Kendal also carried 405 line TV.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 9:00 pm   #2
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Hi Steve

Morecambe Bay, Kendal: 29/8/66
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1967-15.pdf

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1967-14.pdf

Windermere service date not yet known, but I'm working on it!

Cheers
Guy
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 11:58 am   #3
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Guy, thanks for that - just what I wanted. I hope you can find Windermere's start date.

FYI: Many years ago in the 60s and 70s I was receiving signals in the Lakes from all three Txs (plus others, eg Holme Moss) where I am certain I remember that adjacent channel interference and especially multi-path distortion were important issues. So these dates and indeed the TX power patterns assist my recollections.
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 12:03 pm   #4
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Hi Steve
Quote:
adjacent channel interference and especially multi-path distortion were important issues
Indeed:

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1964-35.pdf

Cheers
Guy
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 12:25 pm   #5
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Yes, 405 line TV reception in the Lakes was usually an exercise in checking that the Chimney stack was 'up to' dealing with the weight and wind loading of a 4 element Channel 2 array; add a Band III, double eight, on Channel 9 and you can see that the place made for an interesting skyline.

Later on the BBC introduced 405 line TV on Channel 12 on the ITA Winter Hill Mast to allow those viewers affected by the SpE interference on Channel 2 to switch channel - provided the Ch 12 signal was receivable - which it was not in large parts of the Lakes.

Where I was - a few miles south of Windermere - it was just possible to receive ITA Channel 9 - but it was nearly unwatchable due to ghosting. Morecambe Bay BBC on Channel 3 was stronger but still 'impaired' shall we say. Quite a few people in the Bowness/Windermere urban area were on a wired TV (405 line) system.

Morecambe Bay FM reception on a mono portable (Bush VTR103) required very careful receiver (and its whip aerial) positioning to minimize the noticeable multi-path distortion.
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 12:43 pm   #6
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

The Morecambe Bay transmitting station site has great views on a good day.
I did some call-out maintenance there ('VR2A RP 2' for any ex-MIC types still around ) whilst on attachment to Winter Hill TMT during 1986. One of the Radio 2 FM service amplifiers' QY4-400 cathode resistor had failed o/c - a great bit of deduction on the part of my STE, Steve Winter who diagnosed this in one via the front panel meter readings
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 1:20 pm   #7
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

"Windermere FM relay entered service on 1st April 1986"
(courtesy of John Hammond, Arqiva - formerly BBC Transmission Antenna Section)
Cheers
Guy
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 2:10 pm   #8
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Update: there is the possibility of this being the i.s.d. for BBC Radio Cumbria's FM service rather than the nationals, as an E.I.D. sheet exists dated 1974 showing Windermere as an existing R2/3/4 relay ...
more enquiries in progress!!
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 2:19 pm   #9
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Nymrod121, Thanks for the update - although I'm certain that Windermere FM was there in the 1973/74 era as I reckon it was either a source of 'birdies' on my Radio 3 stereo reception from a different transmitter, or I was tuned to it and the different transmitter was the source of the birdies. FWIW: Windermere FM is also listed in a BBC transmitter training manual dated 1973/74.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:39 am   #10
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Is Windermere the one located in Grizedale Forest?
If so I think it was an FM and UHF TV relay in 1985 when I was around there for Cumbria Police.

Last edited by Jon_G4MDC; 13th Mar 2019 at 10:45 am.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:12 am   #11
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Hi Jon
Mike B's mb21 website gives NGR as SD383980 .
AtB

Last edited by Nymrod121; 13th Mar 2019 at 11:19 am. Reason: mode of address
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:31 am   #12
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Re. #08
Hi Steve
Yes, that makes sense. I'm hoping to hear back on this during the next day or so ... I'll keep you posted.
What was the 'training manual' title, by the way?
AtB
Guy
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:09 pm   #13
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Guy,

I don't have the exact title to hand (it concerned radio wave propagation and reception above 30 Mc/s, ie it covered VHF/UHF issues), but it was definitely written in 1974 and the authors were Farrow and Bell.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:36 pm   #14
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Hello Guy, I see the tower marked there - not the same one.
My memory is of Coniston High Man next to the Fire Tower at
SD328967. I found the OS Map from 1985 and there is a sticky blue dot on it!
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 1:23 pm   #15
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
Guy,

I don't have the exact title to hand (it concerned radio wave propagation and reception above 30 Mc/s, ie it covered VHF/UHF issues), but it was definitely written in 1974 and the authors were Farrow and Bell.
Ah, yes - I have a copy of that. Harry Farrow was our 'antenna fundamentals' lecturer at ETD in 1982

Also, re. Windermere:
I'm advised 4/86 is when a new antenna was installed and Local Radio started. The new antenna replaced a previous "cranked dipole" (?). Recollections are of a site lease agreement dated 9/72 mentioning TV and national radio services.
I think that's about as near as we can get with this line of enquiry otherwise I perceive the risk of the tap being politely but firmly turned off
AtB
Guy
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 3:22 pm   #16
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Guy,

Thanks for your efforts.

FYI: on another thread discussing multi-path issues I commented that reception where I was in the lake district on an VHF/FM portable was marred by multipath, but that was in the mid/late 60s and the transmitter was Morecambe Bay. Later on in about '73 a stereo tuner amp had been bought (A Pioneer SX-300) along with an Antiference 'H' VHF/FM aerial. I'm pretty sure that the Windermere relay was the desired Tx, but it suffered from adjacent channel whistles - most likely from the Kendal relay, only 100 Kc/s off in frequency.

Hence my query about the dates of commencement for these relays in order to pin down my recollections.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 5:42 pm   #17
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymrod121 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
Guy,

I don't have the exact title to hand (it concerned radio wave propagation and reception above 30 Mc/s, ie it covered VHF/UHF issues), but it was definitely written in 1974 and the authors were Farrow and Bell.
Ah, yes - I have a copy of that. Harry Farrow was our 'antenna fundamentals' lecturer at ETD in 1982
'BBC ENGINEERING TRAINING MANUAL - BROADCASTING ASPECTS OF RADIO WAVE PROPAGATION AND TRANSMITTER NETWORK PLANNING AT FREQUENCIES ABOVE 30MHz'.

You beat me to it. Harry must've retired before I started in '83, although his publications were well known and highly regarded.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 1:59 pm   #18
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Russell, yes, that is the manual I meant.

Just as a postscript to my post no. 16:

Knowing what I know now about multi-path and actual aerial performance I wish that I'd bought a 3 element VHF/FM aerial instead of the 'H'. That could well have reduced both the multipath issues as well as the off beam-axis reception of Kendal. Benefit of hindsight eh?
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 12:06 pm   #19
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

A thought about the start date for the Windermere VHF/FM carrying R2, R3 and R4.

Didn't the BBC and IBA produce some little booklets that listed their stations? I wonder if they gave start dates? Certainly the possibility is there that when Windermere started it carried UHF 625 line TV as well as VHF/FM BBC National Radio.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 2:31 pm   #20
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Steve,

I've just grabbed my 'BBC Radio Transmitting Stations 1993 1994' booklet and all the sites, polarities, their service ERPs and their NGRs are mentioned, but no start dates, unfortunately. I have a more comprehensive site list here at work with equipment and landlord, etc..., but again, no dates.

When BBC Transmission split into two factions, most of the data went with (the then) Crown Castle lot. I have some more of these little booklets at home so I'll see if they have a start date published.
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