Turntable upgrade

[John10b]

Split from this thread: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=155105

After reading and taking note of all comments, including the views of my wife “Slate or Concrete plinth” I (we) have decided not to get either 301 or 401. At the moment I’m using a Trio 1033 belt drive with Ortofon cartridge.

So if I wanted to go up a grade what do you suggest, I’m not talking silly money and I know it’s like asking how long is a piece of string, but which Vintage Turntable with Arm and Cartridge would you suggest?
Cheers
John

[ajgriff]

Having just read John's last post I can see this turning into a very long thread with hares running in all directions.

To start the ball rolling the first thing I'd consider would be the cartridge. Changing to a properly set-up moving coil cartridge would make a significant diference. The Denon 103 is a good starting point.

Alan

[Radio Wrangler]

As Alan says, there are so many possible answers and everyone has their favourite.

BUT in reality, once you get to a certain standard, there is nowhere as much difference in things as folklore says there is, and only a tiny fraction of the differences advertisers and magazines claim.

There are many turntables you could be perfectly happy with and if you compared others without any preconcieved ideas, you'd be hard pressed to see a clear preference.

I don't agree with Alan in that I'm not a fan of moving coil cartridges. Their high moving mass and stiff suspension don't seem to my mind to be the way to play records with minimum effect on them. They have a following because of their bright sound, but if your religion allows tone controls or other forms of adjustable equalisation you can have whatever sound you like.

So decide whether you want a moving coil or moving magnet cartridge first. Moving coil will push you towards a high-mass arm, moving magnet will push you towards a low mass arm. This is needed to get the cartridge suspension's fundamental resonance between the bottom of the audio band and above the frequency range of rumbles and warps.

That done, you can have some fun.

The classic low mass, high compliance setup is an SME 3009 type arm and a Shure V15. Mate them with a Thorens TD125 if you want to be classic. If you want to have more fun and be rather radical, then there are the outlandish Transcriptors turntables which have bling and can amaze visitors (you don't want one of their vestigial arms, though) Kubrick chose one as set dressing in Clockwork Orange. Much more understated, there is nothing wrong with the Japanese direct drive units. They don't have cult followings but they'll play your records very nicely.

If you go the moving coil route, you need a high mass arm, and these were sold mostly with claims of their stiffness. The classic setup would be a Linn LP12 and any of the usual arms that their aficionados chose. Linn's own Ittok maybe. These things are still serious money nowadays and you'll get lost in all the 'upgrades' for that LP12. Frankly, the unmodified original was quite OK and the advantages of the mods are a matter of belief.
The Linn and its equivalents have suspended chassis and nicely isolate room noise and people clumping around. These are real world advantages.

Me? I opted out of the mainstream stuff and chose something which I think works perfectly, sounds great and waves two fingers at the cultists. A B&O 4000. I would not recommend one. It gives essentially no choice in cartridge and the cost of having a cartridge re-tipped with a new diamond is staggering. But it sounds superb and it has drop-dead gorgeous looks and it shows independence from all the fairy-dust mongers. It suits me. They aren't expensive, but the stylus may sting you. I got mine a long time ago and my diamond is just fine.

There are several boxes to think inside, or you can think outside the box. You ca, if you choose treat your other half with something that looks like art and still have a fine player of records. Or have something that still looks far-out futuristic.

The differences are far smaller than the claims in many cases

It's just a hobby

So have fun!

David

[Ted Kendall]

I wouldn't put a relatively low-compliance cartridge like the 103 in the 1033 arm, good as it is for budget machinery. It would take one of the better Nagaokas quite well. If you are talking in terms of replacement, perhaps a Thorens 150?

[electrogram]

Yes Thorens td150 or td160, does what it says on the tin without breaking the bank. Direct drive turntables have very complex electronics in in them which can be difficult/expensive to repair when Tthey go wrong. Some belt drives have this too but not the above mentioned thorens models

[ajgriff]

Originally Posted by Ted Kendall

I wouldn't put a relatively low-compliance cartridge like the 103 in the 1033 arm, good as it is for budget machinery. It would take one of the better Nagaokas quite well. If you are talking in terms of replacement, perhaps a Thorens 150?

On the face of it the Denon DL-103 is not a good match for the Trio KD1033 arm. However, with a little trickery the arm mass can be increased and the 103 will then perform very well. I know because I've tried it. My 1033 (now long gone) originally came with a rather good moving magnet Pickering XV-15/625E. This was ok but not in the same league as the Denon.

After many years of 'deck fiddling' I have thus far reached the conclusion that the cartridge is the most significant determinant of performance. This is assuming that the turntable, however driven, is of average design competence and is placed on solid foundations. Most low mass arms can be adapted to suit most cartridges.

All my efforts over the years have been based around the principles of minimum cost and 'simple is best'. The only thing that has cost me a significant sum is the Denon as it's pretty difficult to make a decent cartridge yourself.

Alan

[ajgriff]

A few thoughts for John regarding economical upgrades to his existing set up:

1. Think in terms of the three separate elements ie, turntable, arm and cartridge.

2. Avoid the iconic ie, anything Linn, Garrard 301/401, Goldring GL75, SME etc. Sadly even Thorens and Rega are starting to fall into this category because of the current popularity of vinyl. Look out for the more obscure brands like Revolver.

3. Coose simple designs. Everything should be manually operated. Automation just adds the potential for reverberation or resonance.

4. Give your selected deck solid support and not an old coffee table with wobbly legs.

5. Spend a lot of time on researching the options and avoid audiophoolery at all costs. Use your knowledge and comon sense.

6. Spend the most time on setting up your chosen arrangement. This is particularly important when it comes to the cartridge and arm combination.

7. Invest about £30 (less second-hand) in the Hi-Fi News Test Record. Be aware that most test discs are useless for anything other than telling left from right.

8. In the end believe your own ears and nothing else. Personally I find it useful to compare a good quality vinyl record with its cd companion. Get them to sound similar and you won't be too far out.

If any of this smacks of teaching granny to suck eggs I apologise. Whatever you decide to buy, do please take time out to enjoy the music!

By the way, I'd definitely move on from the Trio. It's ok in its class but you'll find much better turntables out there and should still be able to sell the Trio for around £80.

Alan

[Beobloke]

Originally Posted by ajgriff

3. Coose simple designs. Everything should be manually operated. Automation just adds the potential for reverberation or resonance.

Did you read this in a hi-fi magazine by any chance, as it's a sweeping and largely inaccurate generalisation, in my opinion!

In the end believe your own ears and nothing else

The ear is much too fickle to be trusted, and belief is accepting something without proof, seems like a lose lose situation to me.

[ajgriff]

Originally Posted by Beobloke

Did you read this in a hi-fi magazine by any chance, as it's a sweeping and largely inaccurate generalisation, in my opinion!

Most of my advice is based on generalisation as I'm not thinking of writing a technical thesis. All I've said is derived from my own practical experience. I take everything I read about audio reproduction with a large dose of salt.

Alan

[John10b]

This is all very interesting but I’m no closer on deciding which upgrade to go for, but thank you all for your considered replies which is interesting and helpful.
I’ve been around « live » music all my life, Opera, Musicals, Male Voice Choirs etc, so I know what it should sound like, however I’ve never been in a position to buy the top end hifi stuff.
My set up allows me to sit back and listen and enjoy the music, I’m not looking for shortcomings, and I appreciate that my basic set up or dare I say it any system is able to reproduce the sound of a full scale opera in the living room, but to me that doesn’t matter for the music is all powerful.
So my hunt goes on.
Cheers
John

[cathoderay57]

Hi John, as far as turntables are concerned you pays your money and takes your choice. However, unless you are handy mechanically it is a case of buyer beware. Sorry, I seem to be maxing out on clichés today. What I mean is if you buy a "classic" i.e. older turntable unless you are exceptionally lucky or have very deep pockets you will inevitably have to do some work on it to get it running satisfactorily. Typically a drive belt (if it has one) is likely to need replacing and these are often available on eBay sometimes at sensible prices. Bad bearings are unusual but fairly hard to fix. Replacements for warped or perished idler wheels are sometimes hard to find. Do your research before buying and see if parts are available. Otherwise, go for a more modern unit. In the end it will probably be less trouble to keep running. If possible hear it playing before buying. As far as cartridges are concerned, although it's a given that you can electronically match virtually any cartridge to any amplifier, it's worth considering the input sensitivity of the amp and narrowing down your choice of cartridges unless you want to play around with preamplifiers and equalisation components. If the Ortofon cartridge you have already tracks well and sounds good with your existing amp then frankly I would save your money and try it on your new turntable first. Cheers, Jerry

[Studio263]

Originally Posted by electrogram

Direct drive turntables have very complex electronics in in them which can be difficult/expensive to repair when they go wrong.

Luckily most of the good ones were made in Japan so that doesn't happen very often. Something basic like the original Technics SL-150 is hardly complicated (or expensive), and they are extremely reliable. Performance in terms of speed accuracy, stability and rumble is in a different league to the Thorens models you mention. If you see a turntable as a machine which rotates a record as smoothly and consistently as possible without making any additional noises of its own, then a good Japanese direct drive most closely approaches that ideal.

Many of the problems I see with Japanese turntables are as the result of the owner messing about with what was a perfectly working machine. The dreaded 'recap' comes top of the list of ways to ruin something that had nothing wrong with it to begin with, but this is easily avoided by just not doing it.

[ajgriff]

Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell

The ear is much to fickle to be trusted, and belief is accepting something without proof, seems like a loose loose situation to me.

Acknowledging that you don't trust your own auditory system when assessing the acceptability of recorded music reproduction, what would you trust? Serious question.

Alan

[Radio Wrangler]

Your ears are the ultimate arbiter because the purpose of the whole game is to stuff sound into them that makes you feel satisfied.

That said, care needs to be taken because hearing is susceptible to audible illusions just like eyes are susceptible to optical illusions. Memory of colours, brightnesses, sounds and loudnesses all drift badly. Comparisons need to be immediate. And wishful thinking (it was expensive so it must be good) has to be avoided.

David

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by Studio263

The dreaded 'recap' comes top of the list of ways to ruin something that had nothing wrong with it to begin with, but this is easily avoided by just not doing it.

Quite so - but when my SP10 started running like a coffee-grinder a while ago I feared the worst - until I found unbelievable ripple on one of the main DC supplies. Recapping the external power supply provided an instant and lasting cure. Still, the point is well made - recapping without reasonable cause is a snare and a delusion. And decent Techncs DDs are darned good tools.

[martin.m]

Just spotted this thread. I used to buy various Hi Fi magazines in the late 1970s and in those days the mantra was that belt drive turntables sounded more "musical" than direct drive models, the best of the bunch being the Linn LP12. Practical Hi Fi ran a listening test on some of the popular turntables of the day. Each one was fitted with a Shure M75ED cartridge and the results (playing direct cut discs) were recorded on an up market reel to reel tape deck. The Linn was voted number one, followed by the Trio KD1033. I bought one of these turntables in 1979 and am still using it now. Personally I am not convinced that the turntable itself makes much of a difference to the overall sound, as long as the speed is stable and it doesn't rumble.

[John10b]

Further to my previous post the Cartridge fitted to my Trio KD1033 is an Ortofon FF15EO Mk11. Any suggestions on upgrade from this, I note what’s already been suggested.
Cheers
John

[DonaldStott]

Originally Posted by martin.m

The Linn was voted number one, followed by the Trio KD1033. I bought one of these turntables in 1979 and am still using it now. Personally I am not convinced that the turntable itself makes much of a difference to the overall sound, as long as the speed is stable and it doesn't rumble.

Martin - if you are an LP12 owner then you will know the Linn Mantra "Source First".

Hopefully you've been keeping up to date with the all the upgrades since 1979?

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Originally Posted by ajgriff

2. Avoid the iconic ie, anything Linn, Garrard 301/401, Goldring GL75, SME etc. Sadly even Thorens and Rega are starting to fall into this category because of the current popularity of vinyl. Look out for the more obscure brands like Revolver.

Alan

I agree with all your comments, Alan, except this one! I mentioned the GL59 on the other thread before realising this one had been forked. I'm entirely biased as I've had great fun fixing up mine, but the prices aren't comparable and I think the Goldring/Lencos to be a good idea. That heavy platter seems a good plan for speed stability and the motor is a beast.

Checking eBay has sold prices for an LP12 at a highest of £12,000, while a Goldring-Lenco GL88 was the highest recently sold at £400. I picked up a GL75 and a GL78 including arms and a dust cover for £90 a few months ago, and refurbished the GL78 for a friend, including building an RJM Audio 'Very Simple Phono Stage' in the plinth.

As far as cartridges go, a good start would be the new Audio Technica ATVM95. It's very reasonably priced (£44 with an elliptical stylus) and has a wide range of styli to try, from conical to Shibata. I put one on the GL78 (elliptical) as a start for my friend, and was very impressed.

I've got a moving coil Goldring on my Rega RP3, but have had it in store for years and never actually listened to it! So I can't give an MC/MM comparison.

However, I'd echo Alan's thoughts again that there's a lot of snake oil in audio, so ABX testing is a must before dropping any money, and there's enormous scope in buying good old stuff that can be tweaked and engineered rather more easily than modern 'audiophile' equipment.

I was once given the simple but sage advice to listen to the music, not the components.

Remember what you're aiming for in the reproduction, and that many 'improvements' won't be noticeable without a listening room or acoustic treatment. The delight in a piece of well engineered old equipment can be greater than the latest technology...as I suppose membership of the 'Vintage Radio Forum' will testify!