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Old 16th Jan 2023, 12:34 am   #1
pmmunro
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Default BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

I'm looking for confirmation of a memory from nearly 60 years ago concerning a lines test bay at BBC Aberdeen. This wasn't my usual posting but, being "spare" one quite Friday evening, I was asked to look after the sound control room desk while the duty man was doing something else. (It was very informal in those days).

While he was away, there was a call from down south with a request for a POTL - no, as a very inexperienced 18 year old, I hadn't a clue either so had to ask. It was explained with some exasperation that this was a Post Office Test to Line. If I recall correctly this entailed a frequency sweep and involved what most people would call an audio signal generator but in BBC speak is a "Tone Source", probably TS9 or TS 10, in conjunction with level meter ATM1 "AC test meter".

The significant bit is that I remember the tone source had an externally mounted motor drive and could be set to do the frequency sweep automatically. I think it even changed ranges automatically. It was a bit "Heath Robinson" but fascinating to watch.

Can anyone please confirn that this is not a figment of an aging imagination?

PMM
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 2:29 am   #2
karesz*
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

HalloPeter,
Taht is all what I can serv for you-maybe it helps some..
K.
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 2:33 am   #3
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

And the next too.
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 12:08 pm   #4
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

I possess both of these units, which I refurbished many years ago. They came from the BBC redundant plant department, I've had them for around 40 years.
I seem to remember paying about a tenner each for them.!

They work very well indeed.;
I don't have the mechanically swept version of the generator.

David.
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 12:26 pm   #5
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmmunro View Post
Can anyone please confirn that this is not a figment of an aging imagination?
I've never seen a motorised version, Peter, but that's not to say there weren't any. At the TX sites we didn't have as much line-testing equipment as you would in studios. Here's a pic of the Kirk o' Shotts 'sound dalek' we used to do line squeaks and POTLs back in the 1980s, incorporating a TS/10. This may jog your memory.

We'd do other POTLs and squeaks using an EP/14 or the new 'cheaper' version whose code escapes me right now. These would always be two-person tests with an engineer at each end or, very occasionally on DF circuits which were 'need-to-know', looped back to source. But we'd do them in discrete frequency steps as marked on our 'line-squeak' sheets. Latterly, tests on outstations would be done using a two-piece LINDOS set, where a sweep was done electronically.

At BBC Skelton 'C' we had a BBC Designs Dept continuous frequency sweep for HF sender performance tests, but it was electronic and not motor-driven. I can see, looking at the 'sound dalek', that a motor drive wouldn't be difficult to achieve!
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 1:34 pm   #6
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Interesting ... I've never seen a motorised tone source - it sounds like a local modification.

I have a TS/10*, ATM/1* and EP14/1P (all working), also a rack-mount EP14/1 that is on the 'roundtuit' repair list.

Best wishes,

Guy

* (Some time ago, a certain VRF member somewhere up in Cumbria very kindly sent me scanned copies of the Technical Instructions for these)
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 1:45 pm   #7
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
We'd do other POTLs and squeaks using an EP/14 or the new 'cheaper' version whose code escapes me right now.
ME2/5. I have one but with a busted TPM
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 2:54 pm   #8
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

I vaguely remember a mechanically swept TS/10 in a bay in Bristol's Control Room, but my visits there were pretty brief (to check out the West Region con before the regional news on VHF at 1600h), and it wasn't permanently manned - most PO lines went through our switching centre on the floor below from around 1980 onwards.

If it's what I think, the sweep motor was on the front, sticking out from the manual front panel.

FWIW, my own EP/14 has a sweep function (the suitcase version), but that's digitally controlled and a 1980s design.

S.

PS: I might have seen it in Wood Norton's Uniselector Control Room circa 1978, but I think it was Bristol.

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Old 16th Jan 2023, 3:02 pm   #9
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Quote:
FWIW, my own EP/14 has a sweep function (the suitcase version), but that's digitally controlled and a 1980s design.
That sounds more like a ME2/5P.
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 8:32 pm   #10
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Hmmmm,

I have a BBC research dept. motor driven swept AF Oscillator in the collection. It is not part of the standard BBC numbering scheme, but bears the designation "AF Oscillator Mark 5/2". There is no serial number and I think only a few were made?

It was fully described in Electronic Engineering Oct 1951 page 368 - 373. It is a beat frequency oscillator with a range of 20 - 20,000c/s Built to BBC standards and similar in size to the TS/10.

It was part of a suite of equipment for determining the acoustic properties of a room.
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 9:06 pm   #11
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Many thanks to everyone for their interest and especially the comments which confirm my recollections had some basis.

I went back the BBC Technical Instruction website and found a section I'd overlooked, TI L5 Automatic Line Testing Equipment, which revealed what I was looking for. I've attached some pages from this but I think the correct protocol is to refer anyone interested to the site.

https://www.bbceng.info/ti/tis-post-1949.htm

The tone source was a TS10, somewhat modified, not only to provide a mechanical drive, but also range switching by relays, and other controls, converting the TS10 to a Tone Source OS3/1 coupled to a TE1A/1 Mechanical Drive unit.

The equipment did not use an ATM 1 but had its own Recording Panel PA1/23 which plotted the receiving end signalon a "Recording Ammeter" - a chart recorder.

A full sequence of line tests could be run automatically with "Flyback blanking" as its called in the TI, while the drive sent the oscillator tuning spindle back to the start position during frequency range changing.

I'd never seen the TE1A/1 Drive Unit with its covers off before (See attachment) and its mechanical nature is quiet impressive.

Perhaps this thread should be linked to the "Sweep Generator" thread which is also running at present.

At the time this equipment was designed, it looks to have been an effective and ingenious design. It must have saved a lot of time and tedium in lines testing.

PMM
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Old 16th Jan 2023, 9:54 pm   #12
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Dear God, that's a beast and three-quarters!!
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 9:41 am   #13
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathovisor View Post
Quote:
FWIW, my own EP/14 has a sweep function (the suitcase version), but that's digitally controlled and a 1980s design.
That sounds more like a ME2/5P.
Pretty much.

It says it's a ME2/5A (and it has the Varley DC bridge and telephone test module too). I think of it as an EP14 as it serves the same purpose, but, thinking back 30+ years, the actual EP14s had a heavy metal flightcase, whereas this is in a vacuum moulded suitcase.

It's awkward as it's lost its lid at some point, and I've thought about fitting it into a rack case, but the sweep function card is in the battery module, so it would need quite a lot of work to do it neatly. I still use it occasionally, but obviously not for lines tests these days.
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Old 19th Jan 2023, 9:19 pm   #14
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simondm View Post
(snipped)
It says but, thinking back 30+ years, the actual EP14s had a heavy metal flightcase ...
(snipped)
... as can be seen here:

https://vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=832414

Best wishes
Guy
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Old 19th Jan 2023, 9:37 pm   #15
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Some more relevant information:


https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...age-collection

... and especially:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...tor-oscillator

https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...ic-line-tester

Best wishes
Guy
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Last edited by Nymrod121; 19th Jan 2023 at 9:53 pm. Reason: add generic S.M. link
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Old 19th Jan 2023, 11:29 pm   #16
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Beeb isn't just a broadcaster, a corporation or a company, it's also a language!

Parlez-vous Beeb?

David
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Old 19th Jan 2023, 11:34 pm   #17
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymrod121 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simondm View Post
(snipped)
It says but, thinking back 30+ years, the actual EP14s had a heavy metal flightcase ...
(snipped)
... as can be seen here:

https://vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=832414

Best wishes
Guy
(a.k.a. Hernias 'R' Us)
Ah yes, the EP14/1P - where the 'P' was aspirational. How much it weighed with the extra battery pack, goodness knows!
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Old 20th Jan 2023, 9:02 am   #18
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Mine takes twelve D cells, I think, and only has a suitcase handle. It reminds me of the entertaining term, 'transportable,' that ED used of type C OB mixers, the Longden desks (the cable chest of one I use as a tool chest still), and the later Calrec series in type B vans.

Also Nagras (also 12 D cells), which gave shoulder ache for days after a job...

Happy days, mind, extremely so.
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Old 20th Jan 2023, 11:37 pm   #19
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

I used to have a B&K audio sweep generator( and the associated frequency response analyser - looked like a small TV) we used for PO line-ups and tests of analogue transmitter feeds. The sweep generator was about the size of a tea chest, and painted in battleship grey.
The sweep was motor driven, and I remember being fascinated as the main frequency knob turned by itself! I sold the units to a bloke in Germany. It cost him more in postage than he actually paid!
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 10:11 am   #20
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Default Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive

Quote:
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'Mine takes twelve D cells, I think, and only has a suitcase handle. It reminds me of the entertaining term, 'transportable...'

'Also Nagras (also 12 D cells), which gave shoulder ache for days after a job...'
We were told on our BBC 'A' Course that all this 'portable' equipment was designed to run on 'D'-cells as they were obtainable 'anywhere in the world', even in the most under-developed places.
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