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Vintage Test Gear and Workshop Equipment For discussions about vintage test gear and workshop equipment such as coil winders. |
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16th Jan 2023, 12:34 am | #1 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dundee, UK.
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BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
I'm looking for confirmation of a memory from nearly 60 years ago concerning a lines test bay at BBC Aberdeen. This wasn't my usual posting but, being "spare" one quite Friday evening, I was asked to look after the sound control room desk while the duty man was doing something else. (It was very informal in those days).
While he was away, there was a call from down south with a request for a POTL - no, as a very inexperienced 18 year old, I hadn't a clue either so had to ask. It was explained with some exasperation that this was a Post Office Test to Line. If I recall correctly this entailed a frequency sweep and involved what most people would call an audio signal generator but in BBC speak is a "Tone Source", probably TS9 or TS 10, in conjunction with level meter ATM1 "AC test meter". The significant bit is that I remember the tone source had an externally mounted motor drive and could be set to do the frequency sweep automatically. I think it even changed ranges automatically. It was a bit "Heath Robinson" but fascinating to watch. Can anyone please confirn that this is not a figment of an aging imagination? PMM |
16th Jan 2023, 2:29 am | #2 |
Heptode
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 538
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
HalloPeter,
Taht is all what I can serv for you-maybe it helps some.. K. |
16th Jan 2023, 2:33 am | #3 |
Heptode
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Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
And the next too.
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16th Jan 2023, 12:08 pm | #4 |
Heptode
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Location: Shrewsbury, Shropshire, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
I possess both of these units, which I refurbished many years ago. They came from the BBC redundant plant department, I've had them for around 40 years.
I seem to remember paying about a tenner each for them.! They work very well indeed.; I don't have the mechanically swept version of the generator. David. |
16th Jan 2023, 12:26 pm | #5 | |
Dekatron
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Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Quote:
We'd do other POTLs and squeaks using an EP/14 or the new 'cheaper' version whose code escapes me right now. These would always be two-person tests with an engineer at each end or, very occasionally on DF circuits which were 'need-to-know', looped back to source. But we'd do them in discrete frequency steps as marked on our 'line-squeak' sheets. Latterly, tests on outstations would be done using a two-piece LINDOS set, where a sweep was done electronically. At BBC Skelton 'C' we had a BBC Designs Dept continuous frequency sweep for HF sender performance tests, but it was electronic and not motor-driven. I can see, looking at the 'sound dalek', that a motor drive wouldn't be difficult to achieve!
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16th Jan 2023, 1:34 pm | #6 |
Nonode
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 2,039
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Interesting ... I've never seen a motorised tone source - it sounds like a local modification.
I have a TS/10*, ATM/1* and EP14/1P (all working), also a rack-mount EP14/1 that is on the 'roundtuit' repair list. Best wishes, Guy * (Some time ago, a certain VRF member somewhere up in Cumbria very kindly sent me scanned copies of the Technical Instructions for these)
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16th Jan 2023, 1:45 pm | #7 |
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
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16th Jan 2023, 2:54 pm | #8 |
Pentode
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Bristol, UK.
Posts: 148
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
I vaguely remember a mechanically swept TS/10 in a bay in Bristol's Control Room, but my visits there were pretty brief (to check out the West Region con before the regional news on VHF at 1600h), and it wasn't permanently manned - most PO lines went through our switching centre on the floor below from around 1980 onwards.
If it's what I think, the sweep motor was on the front, sticking out from the manual front panel. FWIW, my own EP/14 has a sweep function (the suitcase version), but that's digitally controlled and a 1980s design. S. PS: I might have seen it in Wood Norton's Uniselector Control Room circa 1978, but I think it was Bristol. Last edited by Simondm; 16th Jan 2023 at 3:01 pm. |
16th Jan 2023, 3:02 pm | #9 | |
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Quote:
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16th Jan 2023, 8:32 pm | #10 |
Heptode
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Camberley, Surrey, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Hmmmm,
I have a BBC research dept. motor driven swept AF Oscillator in the collection. It is not part of the standard BBC numbering scheme, but bears the designation "AF Oscillator Mark 5/2". There is no serial number and I think only a few were made? It was fully described in Electronic Engineering Oct 1951 page 368 - 373. It is a beat frequency oscillator with a range of 20 - 20,000c/s Built to BBC standards and similar in size to the TS/10. It was part of a suite of equipment for determining the acoustic properties of a room. |
16th Jan 2023, 9:06 pm | #11 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dundee, UK.
Posts: 1,797
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Many thanks to everyone for their interest and especially the comments which confirm my recollections had some basis.
I went back the BBC Technical Instruction website and found a section I'd overlooked, TI L5 Automatic Line Testing Equipment, which revealed what I was looking for. I've attached some pages from this but I think the correct protocol is to refer anyone interested to the site. https://www.bbceng.info/ti/tis-post-1949.htm The tone source was a TS10, somewhat modified, not only to provide a mechanical drive, but also range switching by relays, and other controls, converting the TS10 to a Tone Source OS3/1 coupled to a TE1A/1 Mechanical Drive unit. The equipment did not use an ATM 1 but had its own Recording Panel PA1/23 which plotted the receiving end signalon a "Recording Ammeter" - a chart recorder. A full sequence of line tests could be run automatically with "Flyback blanking" as its called in the TI, while the drive sent the oscillator tuning spindle back to the start position during frequency range changing. I'd never seen the TE1A/1 Drive Unit with its covers off before (See attachment) and its mechanical nature is quiet impressive. Perhaps this thread should be linked to the "Sweep Generator" thread which is also running at present. At the time this equipment was designed, it looks to have been an effective and ingenious design. It must have saved a lot of time and tedium in lines testing. PMM |
16th Jan 2023, 9:54 pm | #12 |
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Dear God, that's a beast and three-quarters!!
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18th Jan 2023, 9:41 am | #13 | ||
Pentode
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Bristol, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Quote:
It says it's a ME2/5A (and it has the Varley DC bridge and telephone test module too). I think of it as an EP14 as it serves the same purpose, but, thinking back 30+ years, the actual EP14s had a heavy metal flightcase, whereas this is in a vacuum moulded suitcase. It's awkward as it's lost its lid at some point, and I've thought about fitting it into a rack case, but the sweep function card is in the battery module, so it would need quite a lot of work to do it neatly. I still use it occasionally, but obviously not for lines tests these days. |
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19th Jan 2023, 9:19 pm | #14 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Quote:
https://vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=832414 Best wishes Guy (a.k.a. Hernias 'R' Us)
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"What a depressingly stupid machine." [Marvin: HHGTTG] |
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19th Jan 2023, 9:37 pm | #15 |
Nonode
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Some more relevant information:
https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...age-collection ... and especially: https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...tor-oscillator https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...ic-line-tester Best wishes Guy
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"What a depressingly stupid machine." [Marvin: HHGTTG] Last edited by Nymrod121; 19th Jan 2023 at 9:53 pm. Reason: add generic S.M. link |
19th Jan 2023, 11:29 pm | #16 |
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Beeb isn't just a broadcaster, a corporation or a company, it's also a language!
Parlez-vous Beeb? David
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19th Jan 2023, 11:34 pm | #17 | ||
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Quote:
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20th Jan 2023, 9:02 am | #18 |
Pentode
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Bristol, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
Mine takes twelve D cells, I think, and only has a suitcase handle. It reminds me of the entertaining term, 'transportable,' that ED used of type C OB mixers, the Longden desks (the cable chest of one I use as a tool chest still), and the later Calrec series in type B vans.
Also Nagras (also 12 D cells), which gave shoulder ache for days after a job... Happy days, mind, extremely so. |
20th Jan 2023, 11:37 pm | #19 |
Dekatron
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Location: Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire, UK.
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
I used to have a B&K audio sweep generator( and the associated frequency response analyser - looked like a small TV) we used for PO line-ups and tests of analogue transmitter feeds. The sweep generator was about the size of a tea chest, and painted in battleship grey.
The sweep was motor driven, and I remember being fascinated as the main frequency knob turned by itself! I sold the units to a bloke in Germany. It cost him more in postage than he actually paid!
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23rd Jan 2023, 10:11 am | #20 |
Dekatron
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Re: BBC TS10 (Tone Source) with motor drive
We were told on our BBC 'A' Course that all this 'portable' equipment was designed to run on 'D'-cells as they were obtainable 'anywhere in the world', even in the most under-developed places.
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