Oversize PP3 batteries - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

stevehertz · 9th Jan 2017, 9:01 pm

I'm just in the process of reviving a 'palm size' transistor set from the 60s that takes a PP3 battery. There is a gap between the PCB and the housing in which the battery snugly sits. Ha ha, I say "snugly", therein lies the problem, newer ones don't fit. The gap is 16.47mm. I measured a couple of PP3s that I have at hand. A Duracell Plus Power is 16.91mm thick and a Morrisons PP3 is 17.14mm. Sad that manufacturers have sneakily increased the size of the batteries over the years. In fact I recall having similar problems fitting the latest PP3s into the battery compartments of electro-acoustic guitars.

Does anyone know who makes PP3s that are slim enough to fit into vintage equipment? If push comes to shove I can file a millimetre off the edge of the PCB, but much better if I can locate batteries that fit. You'd think that a commodity product like a battery would have - and always stuck to - a standard size. Interestingly, Wikipedia states that the thickness of a PP3 is 17.5mm. If that was the case back in the 60s, then a lot of the radios using them would not have accepted that size. I'm sure the size has crept up over the years.

Nuvistor · 9th Jan 2017, 9:11 pm

Tried a couple of makers, they seem to quote 16.5 tolerance +-1 mm
https://cellpacksolutions.co.uk/wp-c...data-sheet.pdf

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/522.pdf

Not a lot of help though.

Frank

60 oldjohn · 9th Jan 2017, 9:44 pm

Hi Steve, Just measured these and ONLY Energiser would be ok at 16.38mm. Has 2011 date so present day manufacturing sizes ??
BTW the Ever Ready is ancient.
John.

vidjoman · 9th Jan 2017, 10:45 pm

Might be that the blue plastic has shrunk a little over the years. You may be able to shave a fraction off the edge of the PCB or it might move across slightly if fitted using screws.

kalee20 · 9th Jan 2017, 11:23 pm

Seems strange - Mars bars have gone the opposite!

I suspect that older batteries were actually undersized, but equipment manufacturers sized their compartments from samples rather than data sheets. Years ago, Ever Ready was almost ubiquitous.

Radio_Dave · 9th Jan 2017, 11:58 pm

According to this page http://www.vintageradio.me.uk/radcon...961/batts3.jpg the Ever Ready PP3, in 1961, was 11/16" which Google tells me is 17.4625mm

David

Nicklyons2 · 10th Jan 2017, 1:03 am

The rechargeable PP3s are notoriously oversize. My DMM takes PP3s and old style primary batteries fit easily but with the rechargeables they are an interference fit and the back cover is a bit 'springy'. AA cells seem to suffer the same way.

I've measured the brands I have here and the slimmest I can find are GP Gold alkaline, if that's any help.

stevehertz · 10th Jan 2017, 6:42 am

Thanks guys. Like I say, Wikipedia states that the size for a PP3 is 17.5mm - way too big for my set's c16.5mm gap. I need to buy in a few batteries anyway, so I'll get a few different makes, especially an Energiser one. Otherwise I'll take a shaving off the edge of the PCB.

trsomian · 10th Jan 2017, 9:17 am

When I tried a new PP3 in my "Boys radio" a few weeks back I had the same problem, a modern Duracell PP3 was too fat for the back to fit on properly. When this set was in normal use (in the late 60s and 70s) I do remember squeezing "Flying Bomb" batteries in Dad's vice to get them to fit better, but EverReady which were more expensive, fitted fine. So this is not an entirely new problem

stevehertz · 10th Jan 2017, 12:48 pm

Indeed, but you'd have thought that battery manufacturers and equipment manufacturers would have got their heads around it wouldn't you?! It's not rocket science. The battery manufacturers 'association' (or whatever it's called) having accepted the basic design for the PP3 (in 1959 I think..) should have (maybe they did) produce a spec for all manufacturers to work to. Wikipedia says a PP3 should be 17.5mm thick, but that too big for lots of battery holders/spaces. Clearly, wires crossed and/or no-one listened...

emeritus · 10th Jan 2017, 1:55 pm

Here's the datasheet for the Duracell PP3 equivalent (MN 1604) from their 1990 data book.
Thickness tolerance is 15.50 to 17.50mm. I understand that these are the dimension limits specified in the official I.E.C. specification for 6LR61 batteries as I have seen identical dimensions specified on other manufacturers' data sheets..

Brigham · 10th Jan 2017, 2:36 pm

I can't remember what PP3 batteries looked like in the '60s. Were they always metal-clad?
If not, you can discard the casing, and replace it with stiff card, at the same time as you apply the correct period label.
No trouble with dimensions; you can make it to suit the opening in the set.

stevehertz · 10th Jan 2017, 3:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by emeritus

Here's the datasheet for the Duracell PP3 equivalent (MN 1604) from their 1990 data book.
Thickness tolerance is 15.50 to 17.50mm. I understand that these are the dimension limits specified in the official I.E.C. specification for 6LR61 batteries as I have seen identical dimensions specified on other manufacturers' data sheets..

Thanks. There you go then, 17.5mm appears to be the maximum. So OEMs should make their products with battery holders big enough to accept up to 17.5mm. Many don't as I know only too well myself, even on more recent equipment.

stevehertz · 10th Jan 2017, 5:38 pm

I've just bought some Wilko 'Extra' alkaline PP3s for just £1.95 a go. They fit in my trannie as if they were made for it! There were also Duracells at £4, and Energizers at a whopping £4.95 a go. I can't imagine that either would last twice as long as the Wilko alkaline PP3 that I bought.

Junk Box Nick · 10th Jan 2017, 6:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brigham

I can't remember what PP3 batteries looked like in the '60s. Were they always metal-clad?

I'm pretty sure every PP3 that I've encountered (and I go back to the 60s) was metal clad. The main makes were Ever Ready and Vidor with the occasional Ray-o-vac and an obscure brand called Flying Bomb!

I'm sure I remember the bigger PP9 and PP7 9 volt types - and U2 and U11 batteries - in card.

G6Tanuki · 10th Jan 2017, 7:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junk Box Nick

an obscure brand called Flying Bomb!.

"Flying Bomb" batteries were the factory-installed batteries for pretty much every cheap imported 'Empire made' [i.e. Hong Kong] transistor radio/cassette-recorder in the 1960s and early-1970s.

They came both as the aforementioned PP3 and also what we then always called "U7" or "HP7" but now call AA. I also recall buying them from various market-stalls in Wellington (Telford) and Shrewsbury as a kid.

Strangely for this discussion-thread, I don't ever recall having difficulty fitting PP3s into the space allotted to them in radios - indeed I can remember pushing shims of cereal-packet card into the gaps to stop non-snug-fitting batteries rattling against the case when the volume was turned up!

Phil G4SPZ · 10th Jan 2017, 10:29 pm

I have also experienced similar problems with fitting present-day batteries into vintage equipment. I do wonder whether the Far Eastern battery manufacturers in the 1960s stuck rigidly to the european 'standard' as I have sometimes found difficulty fitting modern AA cells - they're too long.

Modern PP3s vary in size quite markedly. I build a lot of replica HT batteries and find that Sony-branded zinc carbon batteries from the local Pound Shop are one of the smallest. Thanks for the heads-up on Wilko own-brand PP3s, that's worth knowing.

Of course, since the 1960s PP3s have changed from 'layer' internal construction to half a dozen sub-AAAA cylindrical cells.

MotorBikeLes · 11th Jan 2017, 12:12 am

There seems to be the idea that PP3s were always metal clad. NO! Some early ones were card, many were plastic. Metal came later.Around 1970 I acquired a NordMende ** "metal detector" (as in wires under plaster). It has an on/off/sensitivity control, and always did the job expected of it. But then along came metal clad PP3s, and it would not work, with the metal clad battery right next to the ferrite rod. I have since needed to remove the metal and insulate with card and sellotape.
**Correction, not NordMende. It is in fact a Taunus, it came from the NM importer. I still have it sitting on my bookshelf next to me.
Les.

Maarten · 11th Jan 2017, 4:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil G4SPZ

Of course, since the 1960s PP3s have changed from 'layer' internal construction to half a dozen sub-AAAA cylindrical cells.

Not always. 6LR61 batteries contain cylindrical cells by definition, but 6F22 batteries should still contain a stack of flat cells. I don't think there is such a thing as a 6LF22 battery, though.

trsomian · 11th Jan 2017, 8:57 am

I don't really know too much about this, but I had assumed that the reason some PP3s are fatter than they used to be is because they have 6 long round cells in them (rather than the a stack of the flat cells), and that the long round cells are a standard size for other applications (though I have no idea what), and they conveniently just fit in the permitted size of a PP3 when enclosed in a very thin steel can.

I stress this is only my assumption; it is not a fact!

9th Jan 2017, 9:01 pm	#1
stevehertz Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 8,835	Oversize PP3 batteries I'm just in the process of reviving a 'palm size' transistor set from the 60s that takes a PP3 battery. There is a gap between the PCB and the housing in which the battery snugly sits. Ha ha, I say "snugly", therein lies the problem, newer ones don't fit. The gap is 16.47mm. I measured a couple of PP3s that I have at hand. A Duracell Plus Power is 16.91mm thick and a Morrisons PP3 is 17.14mm. Sad that manufacturers have sneakily increased the size of the batteries over the years. In fact I recall having similar problems fitting the latest PP3s into the battery compartments of electro-acoustic guitars. Does anyone know who makes PP3s that are slim enough to fit into vintage equipment? If push comes to shove I can file a millimetre off the edge of the PCB, but much better if I can locate batteries that fit. You'd think that a commodity product like a battery would have - and always stuck to - a standard size. Interestingly, Wikipedia states that the thickness of a PP3 is 17.5mm. If that was the case back in the 60s, then a lot of the radios using them would not have accepted that size. I'm sure the size has crept up over the years. Attached Thumbnails __________________ A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..

9th Jan 2017, 9:11 pm	#2
Nuvistor Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 9,433	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries Tried a couple of makers, they seem to quote 16.5 tolerance +-1 mm https://cellpacksolutions.co.uk/wp-c...data-sheet.pdf http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/522.pdf Not a lot of help though. Frank

9th Jan 2017, 9:44 pm	#3
60 oldjohn Dekatron Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 3,990	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries Hi Steve, Just measured these and ONLY Energiser would be ok at 16.38mm. Has 2011 date so present day manufacturing sizes ?? BTW the Ever Ready is ancient. John. Attached Thumbnails

9th Jan 2017, 10:45 pm	#4
vidjoman Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: East Sussex, UK. Posts: 3,327	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries Might be that the blue plastic has shrunk a little over the years. You may be able to shave a fraction off the edge of the PCB or it might move across slightly if fitted using screws.

9th Jan 2017, 11:23 pm	#5
kalee20 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK. Posts: 7,088	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries Seems strange - Mars bars have gone the opposite! I suspect that older batteries were actually undersized, but equipment manufacturers sized their compartments from samples rather than data sheets. Years ago, Ever Ready was almost ubiquitous.

9th Jan 2017, 11:58 pm	#6
Radio_Dave Nonode Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 2,543	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries According to this page http://www.vintageradio.me.uk/radcon...961/batts3.jpg the Ever Ready PP3, in 1961, was 11/16" which Google tells me is 17.4625mm David __________________ http://www.youtube.com/ My Nixie Clocks

10th Jan 2017, 1:03 am	#7
Nicklyons2 Octode Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,517	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries The rechargeable PP3s are notoriously oversize. My DMM takes PP3s and old style primary batteries fit easily but with the rechargeables they are an interference fit and the back cover is a bit 'springy'. AA cells seem to suffer the same way. I've measured the brands I have here and the slimmest I can find are GP Gold alkaline, if that's any help.

10th Jan 2017, 6:42 am	#8
stevehertz Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 8,835	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries Thanks guys. Like I say, Wikipedia states that the size for a PP3 is 17.5mm - way too big for my set's c16.5mm gap. I need to buy in a few batteries anyway, so I'll get a few different makes, especially an Energiser one. Otherwise I'll take a shaving off the edge of the PCB. __________________ A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..

10th Jan 2017, 9:17 am	#9
trsomian Hexode Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Box End, Beds. UK. Posts: 271	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries When I tried a new PP3 in my "Boys radio" a few weeks back I had the same problem, a modern Duracell PP3 was too fat for the back to fit on properly. When this set was in normal use (in the late 60s and 70s) I do remember squeezing "Flying Bomb" batteries in Dad's vice to get them to fit better, but EverReady which were more expensive, fitted fine. So this is not an entirely new problem

10th Jan 2017, 12:48 pm	#10
stevehertz Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 8,835	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries Indeed, but you'd have thought that battery manufacturers and equipment manufacturers would have got their heads around it wouldn't you?! It's not rocket science. The battery manufacturers 'association' (or whatever it's called) having accepted the basic design for the PP3 (in 1959 I think..) should have (maybe they did) produce a spec for all manufacturers to work to. Wikipedia says a PP3 should be 17.5mm thick, but that too big for lots of battery holders/spaces. Clearly, wires crossed and/or no-one listened... __________________ A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..

10th Jan 2017, 2:36 pm	#12
Brigham Octode Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Co. Durham, UK. Posts: 1,118	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries I can't remember what PP3 batteries looked like in the '60s. Were they always metal-clad? If not, you can discard the casing, and replace it with stiff card, at the same time as you apply the correct period label. No trouble with dimensions; you can make it to suit the opening in the set.

10th Jan 2017, 5:38 pm	#14
stevehertz Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 8,835	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries I've just bought some Wilko 'Extra' alkaline PP3s for just £1.95 a go. They fit in my trannie as if they were made for it! There were also Duracells at £4, and Energizers at a whopping £4.95 a go. I can't imagine that either would last twice as long as the Wilko alkaline PP3 that I bought. Attached Thumbnails __________________ A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..

10th Jan 2017, 10:29 pm	#17
Phil G4SPZ Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bewdley, Worcestershire, UK. Posts: 4,748	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries I have also experienced similar problems with fitting present-day batteries into vintage equipment. I do wonder whether the Far Eastern battery manufacturers in the 1960s stuck rigidly to the european 'standard' as I have sometimes found difficulty fitting modern AA cells - they're too long. Modern PP3s vary in size quite markedly. I build a lot of replica HT batteries and find that Sony-branded zinc carbon batteries from the local Pound Shop are one of the smallest. Thanks for the heads-up on Wilko own-brand PP3s, that's worth knowing. Of course, since the 1960s PP3s have changed from 'layer' internal construction to half a dozen sub-AAAA cylindrical cells. __________________ Phil Optimist [n]: One who is not in possession of the full facts

11th Jan 2017, 12:12 am	#18
MotorBikeLes Nonode Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Kirk Michael, Isle of Man Posts: 2,350	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries There seems to be the idea that PP3s were always metal clad. NO! Some early ones were card, many were plastic. Metal came later.Around 1970 I acquired a NordMende "metal detector" (as in wires under plaster). It has an on/off/sensitivity control, and always did the job expected of it. But then along came metal clad PP3s, and it would not work, with the metal clad battery right next to the ferrite rod. I have since needed to remove the metal and insulate with card and sellotape. Correction, not NordMende. It is in fact a Taunus, it came from the NM importer. I still have it sitting on my bookshelf next to me. Les.

11th Jan 2017, 8:57 am	#20
trsomian Hexode Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Box End, Beds. UK. Posts: 271	Re: Oversize PP3 batteries I don't really know too much about this, but I had assumed that the reason some PP3s are fatter than they used to be is because they have 6 long round cells in them (rather than the a stack of the flat cells), and that the long round cells are a standard size for other applications (though I have no idea what), and they conveniently just fit in the permitted size of a PP3 when enclosed in a very thin steel can. I stress this is only my assumption; it is not a fact!