ITI 300-type Telephone - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Sam · 14th Jul 2006, 9:01 pm

I have now moved into another sphere of old c

p:

I have got an ITI-made 300-type telephone. It has been messed with though.

All the parts are of a similar age, but the internal wiring has been hacked around a bit and cut a lot. There is no kind of circuit diagram inside the case, so does anyone have or know of a suitable circuit diagram.

A couple of parts are damaged inside, but hopefully an old Ericsson chassis I have should be able to provide any spares I need. I may need some new lenghts of correctly coloured wire to re-wire the inside though.

Well, best get polishing!

Sam

Nickthedentist · 14th Jul 2006, 9:06 pm

You know these are Indian, Sam?

I'm not sure how similar they are internally to the 300-series GPO ones. Could you post a pic?

Where did you find it?

Nick.

Dave Moll · 14th Jul 2006, 9:09 pm

Have you had a look in The Telephone File? There's not much about telephones that isn't somewhere on that site.

Although I cannot see any direct mention of ITI, I'm sure it can't be all that different from other 300-series telephones.

edit: Nick's suggestion of a picture might help to answer the question of how different it could be.

Nickthedentist · 14th Jul 2006, 9:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Moll

Although I cannot see any direct mention of ITI, I'm sure it can't be all that different from other 300-series telephones.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure, but there are certainly some similarities, see here and scroll 2/3 way down: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/freshwater/collect.htm

Sam · 14th Jul 2006, 9:15 pm

A couple of quick replies there! I will get a few of photographs of the 'phone taken later. I got it via eBay from a seller in the next town - I rode over and collected it this evening. It was sold as an ITI-stamped 'phone, so I knew I was getting an Indian one!

Sam

jim_beacon · 14th Jul 2006, 9:38 pm

IIRC correctly, the Indian phones use the "cheap" cut down circuit, that was also used on other export models (Portugese springs to mind). Somewhere I have some base plates for these, with the paste diagrams still attached - I'll have a look over the weekend.

Jim

Darren-UK · 14th Jul 2006, 11:49 pm

The general opinion among telephone enthusiasts is that these Indian jobs are fakes. In reality they're not; it goes back to the days of the British Empire and immediately afterwards when India started producing its own equipment which was, inevitably, based upon British designs.

Unfortunately, however, many of these phones have reached the UK and some dealers (most notably at antiques centres) try to palm them off as GPO items with prices to match those of genuine GPO items.

At the end of the day though, if Sam knew his phone was Indian and is happy with that ..... then all well and good.

One major problem is present concerns the flood of replica mechanical gramophones and clocks which are coming out of India and China; these do seem to get palmed off as genuine originals quite deliberately it seems. This isn't relevant to this thread, I know, but it's a far bigger problem than the Indian telephones.

Nick has given the link to Bob Freshwaters website. This did contain a page or two on the differences between Indian and British telephones and I would assume it still does.

Dave Moll · 15th Jul 2006, 10:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by darren-uk

Nick has given the link to Bob Freshwaters website. This did contain a page or two on the differences between Indian and British telephones and I would assume it still does.

yes, it does, but nothing about the circuitry.

Darren-UK · 15th Jul 2006, 11:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Moll

yes, it does, but nothing about the circuitry.

Quite correct, it doesn't. I get the impression Bob Freshwater is not a fan of these 332 copies and thus doesn't encourage people by giving circuits etc. Hopefully Jim Beacon will be able to help Sam with a circuit.

Sam · 20th Jul 2006, 1:29 pm

OK, here are a few pictures of the telephone. I hope they help. I haven't spent too long on the 'phone so far. It has been too nice to be inside, so I have been tinkering with an old Motorbike in the sun!

The label on the induction coil states:

B66/1

Termls Winding
1&2 35 ohms
4 3 75 ohms
3 5 30 ohms
5 6 30 ohms NI
3 7 30 ohms NI

BJL 285914

The label on the ringing coil for the bell states

1100 ohm

DL 28950

I haven't checked if it is trembler bell or a magneto bell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darren-uk

The general opinion among telephone enthusiasts is that these Indian jobs are fakes. In reality they're not; it goes back to the days of the British Empire and immediately afterwards when India started producing its own equipment which was, inevitably, based upon British designs.

I feel the same - they aren't fake 332s, in the same way that the Indian Enfields aren't fake Royal Enfields and Hindutan Ambassadors aren't fake Morris Oxfords. They are a quite interesting piece of social history as parts of the British Empire became indipendant and sesired not to be dependant on the British-made goods they had previously used.

Sam

bobsterkent · 25th Jul 2006, 8:42 pm

the ITI ones have a dead giveaway in that the chassis instead of having nice clear holes in for the sound to come out have small mesh fitted to stop bugs and insects crawling in, its a very easy way to check instantly if its GPO or not. I have one at home connected via the switchboard and it does very good service (once i had chucked out the original lousy mic)

tvden · 25th Jul 2006, 9:07 pm

Sam this phone looks like it has been in very damp conditions I did not know there were Indian 300 type phones available !!! still it looks the part perhaps they were made from original moulds the same as the Enfields regards TVDen

Sam · 25th Jul 2006, 9:25 pm

Yes, I thought that too; the base-plate is very coroded. I haven't gotten round to delving deeply into the 'phone yet - been trying to get my frustrating old Triumph running! Hopefully I can have a look inside it soon though.

Sam

Sam · 3rd Aug 2006, 1:01 pm

OK, making a start on this. Got a house in Hinckley sorted, so I want to make a few things work to take with me! Dispite the rust, the terminals are all clean and I haven't found any O/C windings yet.

A few questions:

How do you take the mouthpiece off the handset? 'Telephony' said there was a special tool. Can I get into it without a special tool?

Does it matter if the iron diaphagm is slightly bent? I should have a spare somewhere though!

Has anyone found a circuit diagram yet?!

Sam

jim_beacon · 3rd Aug 2006, 1:32 pm

Sam,

on the mouthpiece rim, you will see a small hole, use a small rod, push down on the metal tab through the hole, then twist the mouthpiece off.

The diaphram should be flat and free from rust.

I haven't got far enough down the shed to get to the diagram yet (but I can get inside the door now (just)), unfortunatly, the shed is 12' x 8', and the phone bits are at least halfway to the back.......

Jim.

Sam · 7th Oct 2006, 5:23 pm

I have had a go with this and am starting to succeed. Using the GPO circuit, I was able to re-connect the wires I needed for the handset and plug-cord. I had always planned to stap the terminals to bypass the dial, and so have done. I can always get the dial working at a later date.

The 'phone rings fine, and stops when I pick up the 'normal' 'phone connected to the line. Picking up the ITI handset does not stop either phone from ringing, and the phone will ring with the ITI handset not on the rest. Any pointers where to look to sort this problem? The contacts which are made when the handset is picked up seem to work fine when I check them with my AVO.

Sam

Station X · 8th Oct 2006, 9:59 am

Sam.

Disconnect the phone from the external line. Put a meter on resistance range across the A and B wires going into the phone. With the handset on hook you should see an open circuit once the meter has charged the bell capacitor.

When you lift the handset the resistance should drop to a low value. However in your case it probably won't which is why you're not tripping the ringing current. It's then a matter of continuity testing through the phone to find out where the fault is.

Radio_Dave · 8th Oct 2006, 7:54 pm

Hi Sam,

I've found some really useful pictures, on ebay, that should help you out.

I'll PM you the link

David

Sam · 23rd Mar 2007, 7:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim_beacon

IIRC correctly, the Indian phones use the "cheap" cut down circuit, that was also used on other export models (Portugese springs to mind). Somewhere I have some base plates for these, with the paste diagrams still attached - I'll have a look over the weekend.

Have you had any luck finding the circuits Jim?

Does anyone know how cut-down the circuit may be? I have just connected my newest aquisition - an Ericofon - and as I dial with this the bells in the ITI 300 tinkle with every break/make of the dial contacts. Could this indiacte a fault, or just that the 'phone is rather basic inside?
Sam

jim_beacon · 23rd Mar 2007, 9:08 pm

Aaargh.......

Sorry Sam, I forgot about this. Sean now has the (very) large boxful of baseplates....

Jim.

14th Jul 2006, 9:01 pm	#1
Sam Hexode Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Higham-on-the-Hill, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 338	ITI 300-type Telephone I have now moved into another sphere of old c p: I have got an ITI-made 300-type telephone. It has been messed with though. All the parts are of a similar age, but the internal wiring has been hacked around a bit and cut a lot. There is no kind of circuit diagram inside the case, so does anyone have or know of a suitable circuit diagram. A couple of parts are damaged inside, but hopefully an old Ericsson chassis I have should be able to provide any spares I need. I may need some new lenghts of correctly coloured wire to re-wire the inside though. Well, best get polishing! Sam __________________ Can he lead a Normal life, Doctor? No, he will be ... an Engineer.

14th Jul 2006, 9:06 pm	#2
Nickthedentist Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 17,864	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone You know these are Indian, Sam? I'm not sure how similar they are internally to the 300-series GPO ones. Could you post a pic? Where did you find it? Nick.

14th Jul 2006, 9:09 pm	#3
Dave Moll Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK Posts: 6,130	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone Have you had a look in The Telephone File? There's not much about telephones that isn't somewhere on that site. Although I cannot see any direct mention of ITI, I'm sure it can't be all that different from other 300-series telephones. edit: Nick's suggestion of a picture might help to answer the question of how different it could be.

14th Jul 2006, 9:15 pm	#5
Sam Hexode Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Higham-on-the-Hill, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 338	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone A couple of quick replies there! I will get a few of photographs of the 'phone taken later. I got it via eBay from a seller in the next town - I rode over and collected it this evening. It was sold as an ITI-stamped 'phone, so I knew I was getting an Indian one! Sam __________________ Can he lead a Normal life, Doctor? No, he will be ... an Engineer.

14th Jul 2006, 9:38 pm	#6
jim_beacon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bishop's Waltham, Hants, UK. Posts: 939	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone IIRC correctly, the Indian phones use the "cheap" cut down circuit, that was also used on other export models (Portugese springs to mind). Somewhere I have some base plates for these, with the paste diagrams still attached - I'll have a look over the weekend. Jim

14th Jul 2006, 11:49 pm	#7
Darren-UK Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Blackpool, Lancashire, UK. Posts: 4,061	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone The general opinion among telephone enthusiasts is that these Indian jobs are fakes. In reality they're not; it goes back to the days of the British Empire and immediately afterwards when India started producing its own equipment which was, inevitably, based upon British designs. Unfortunately, however, many of these phones have reached the UK and some dealers (most notably at antiques centres) try to palm them off as GPO items with prices to match those of genuine GPO items. At the end of the day though, if Sam knew his phone was Indian and is happy with that ..... then all well and good. One major problem is present concerns the flood of replica mechanical gramophones and clocks which are coming out of India and China; these do seem to get palmed off as genuine originals quite deliberately it seems. This isn't relevant to this thread, I know, but it's a far bigger problem than the Indian telephones. Nick has given the link to Bob Freshwaters website. This did contain a page or two on the differences between Indian and British telephones and I would assume it still does.

25th Jul 2006, 8:42 pm	#11
bobsterkent Hexode Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Medway towns, Kent, UK. Posts: 271	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone the ITI ones have a dead giveaway in that the chassis instead of having nice clear holes in for the sound to come out have small mesh fitted to stop bugs and insects crawling in, its a very easy way to check instantly if its GPO or not. I have one at home connected via the switchboard and it does very good service (once i had chucked out the original lousy mic)

25th Jul 2006, 9:07 pm	#12
tvden Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Halesworth, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 413	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone Sam this phone looks like it has been in very damp conditions I did not know there were Indian 300 type phones available !!! still it looks the part perhaps they were made from original moulds the same as the Enfields regards TVDen

25th Jul 2006, 9:25 pm	#13
Sam Hexode Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Higham-on-the-Hill, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 338	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone Yes, I thought that too; the base-plate is very coroded. I haven't gotten round to delving deeply into the 'phone yet - been trying to get my frustrating old Triumph running! Hopefully I can have a look inside it soon though. Sam __________________ Can he lead a Normal life, Doctor? No, he will be ... an Engineer.

3rd Aug 2006, 1:01 pm	#14
Sam Hexode Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Higham-on-the-Hill, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 338	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone OK, making a start on this. Got a house in Hinckley sorted, so I want to make a few things work to take with me! Dispite the rust, the terminals are all clean and I haven't found any O/C windings yet. A few questions: How do you take the mouthpiece off the handset? 'Telephony' said there was a special tool. Can I get into it without a special tool? Does it matter if the iron diaphagm is slightly bent? I should have a spare somewhere though! Has anyone found a circuit diagram yet?! Sam __________________ Can he lead a Normal life, Doctor? No, he will be ... an Engineer.

3rd Aug 2006, 1:32 pm	#15
jim_beacon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bishop's Waltham, Hants, UK. Posts: 939	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone Sam, on the mouthpiece rim, you will see a small hole, use a small rod, push down on the metal tab through the hole, then twist the mouthpiece off. The diaphram should be flat and free from rust. I haven't got far enough down the shed to get to the diagram yet (but I can get inside the door now (just)), unfortunatly, the shed is 12' x 8', and the phone bits are at least halfway to the back....... Jim.

7th Oct 2006, 5:23 pm	#16
Sam Hexode Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Higham-on-the-Hill, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 338	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone I have had a go with this and am starting to succeed. Using the GPO circuit, I was able to re-connect the wires I needed for the handset and plug-cord. I had always planned to stap the terminals to bypass the dial, and so have done. I can always get the dial working at a later date. The 'phone rings fine, and stops when I pick up the 'normal' 'phone connected to the line. Picking up the ITI handset does not stop either phone from ringing, and the phone will ring with the ITI handset not on the rest. Any pointers where to look to sort this problem? The contacts which are made when the handset is picked up seem to work fine when I check them with my AVO. Sam __________________ Can he lead a Normal life, Doctor? No, he will be ... an Engineer.

8th Oct 2006, 9:59 am	#17
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,289	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone Sam. Disconnect the phone from the external line. Put a meter on resistance range across the A and B wires going into the phone. With the handset on hook you should see an open circuit once the meter has charged the bell capacitor. When you lift the handset the resistance should drop to a low value. However in your case it probably won't which is why you're not tripping the ringing current. It's then a matter of continuity testing through the phone to find out where the fault is. __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

8th Oct 2006, 7:54 pm	#18
Radio_Dave Nonode Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 2,543	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone Hi Sam, I've found some really useful pictures, on ebay, that should help you out. I'll PM you the link David

23rd Mar 2007, 9:08 pm	#20
jim_beacon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bishop's Waltham, Hants, UK. Posts: 939	Re: ITI 300-type Telephone Aaargh....... Sorry Sam, I forgot about this. Sean now has the (very) large boxful of baseplates.... Jim.