Upgrading a turntable.

[Audiophile]

Morning all,
I need a little advice regarding turntables, at the moment I have a reasonable system consisting of mainly Technics equipment bought off eBay, CD, tuner, nice Denon amp, and a Pioneer PL-990 auto turntable, all bought on a budget and now I have a bit more cash I'm looking at upgrading the turntable.

I must admit to being hooked on the 'bay', so much choice, new or secondhand, so much choice in the fact that I have got rather confused.
I have looked at Technics, Rega, Pioneer, Project, and I read all the reviews on the different makes. I have come up with a short list consisting of Pioneer PL-12D, Rega RP1 or Rega planar models, Project carbon, I have a budget of about £400.
I like the look of the Pioneer PL-12D but is it reliable and repairable if it goes wrong, same goes for the Rega Planar, are they reliable? Is it better to perhaps get a new Rega RP1 and upgrade it at a later date,(is there a source where I could learn more about upgrading turntables?)

I really have dug a hole for myself as I'm now wondering whether to take a chance with second hand or go new with a guarantee, could do with some opinions, what would you do? ??

[Craig Sawyers]

Tough question. Personally I'd tend towards the PL12D and Rega Planar, but you'll get every variety of recommendation I'm sure.

If you buy a second hand one, you have got to be prepared to do some work and there is some risk. Has the turntable been maintained, or used to within an inch of its life? What is the condition of the main bearing, has it been regularly lubricated? Are the motor bearings worn? If all of those check out, it will almost certainly need a new belt.

So it depends on whether you tend towards taking some risk via eBay, or buy new and get a guarantee and be certain that nothing (other than anything in the manual) needs be done.

Craig

[rontech]

I bought a Planar P2 about 18 months back from my local hifi dealer. The Carbon cartridge which was ready fitted was surprisingly good. I preferred something better though and fitted an Ortofon 2M unit. I am very pleased indeed with the sound quality and the deck has given no problems. The ergonomics of the pickup arm are excellent. The local dealer could supply the correct drive belts, so I have a spare just in case.

[snowman_al]

You will get lots of opinions I'm sure. So these are mine.

The Pioneer PL12D is ok, they are reliable, but getting older, so spares may be an issue if something goes wrong. The arm is nothing special and there is no real upgrade path. It is what it is. It does look good though.

The Rega Planars and P2 / P3 are reliable, all the spares are available the arms are good and if you want to upgrade there are lots of options. Improved sub platters, double belt pulleys, motor upgrades etc. etc. They also have the glass platter.

The Rega RP1 is a 'starter turntable' (like the Project) with a cost reduced arm and fibre (not glass) platter. Upgrade path is to exchange it for a better model. It is good (enough), but a good second hand Planar or Px will be better.

No idea about the Technics range.

[Beobloke]

The PL-12D is a lovely thing and still never fails to surprise me whenever one passes through my hands at just how damn good it is! Yes, the usual caveats apply regarding older turntables but the Pioneer is a simple thing and so really isn't difficult to keep running in tip-top condition.

Regarding modern decks, the Regas are well proven and difficult to ignore but, personally, I'd head towards a Pro-Ject if it was my money. You mention a £400 budget and for £325 you could have a Pro-Ject Debut 3 S Audiophile complete with a proprietary cartridge made by Ortofon which is effectively a 'hot-rodded' OM10.

https://www.project-audio.com/en/pro...-s-audiophile/

I reviewed one for the UK press and lived with it for over a month last year and was incredibly impressed by it (bearing in mind my usual turntable is worth around 24.7 times as much as this deck!).

Another one to consider if you fancy ease of use and direct drive simplicity is the Audio Technica AT-LP5. Yes, its a 'Super OEM China special' but they've removed all the unnecessary DJ feature tat that no-one wants and actually appear to have made some effort to give it some decent arm bearings and to build it properly. Again, I was impressed with it when I heard one.

[RojDW48]

My preference is for older TTs which just go round and round - ie, idler or belt drive, no return and stop etc - eg Lenco GL75, Thorens belt drives, Collaro 4T100 etc. Simple mechanical things which are easy to service and repair. Having said that I did have a PL12D pass through and it was a nice TT.

[Radio Wrangler]

You'll find no shortage of disparate and strong opinions... all pointing in different directions. There is no overall consensus. Whatever someone suggests, someone else has the opposite opinion.

Here are my thoughts:

There are some differences in sound. relatively few of them are in any way related to the turntable itself unless there is something seriously wrong.

Belt-drive, idler drive, and direct drive can all be good if well designed and in good condition. Belt drive is relatively easy to get right, idler drive is more difficult. Direct drive works well, but gets sneered at which is unfair. Direct drive electronics can be a devil to fix because of poor info and custom ICs. My choice would be belt drive.

The main turntable units come either bolted hard to a solid plinth, or floating on a sprung suspension. Solid mount needs a high mass plinth on a very solid support to stop room vibrations and sounds getting in. A lot of manufacturers went solid to avoid the complexity and cost of suspension. Criticism of this was met by general claims of superiority (which I considered to be spurious) Good suspension works well and makes a turntable easy to live with and places less demands on your room and floor! I go for suspension, though I had and enjoyed a rigid Rega for several years.

Cartridges make more difference to the sound than the rest of the thing, so choose a type of cartridge, then choose a type of arm.

Moving coil cartridges tend to be bright sounding and are very fashionable, but ther stylos sees a relatively heavy coil pair to have to move and they have relatively stiffly suspended styli ('low mechanical compliance' and high unsprung mass) They tend to be good at ploughing through mucky grooves.

Moving magnet cartridges lose that brightness (you can get it back with a tweak of a tone control if you are allowed to use them) but are much more compliant and lower unsprung mass. They are generally kinder to records and can be very natural sounding. They are usually cheaper and they don't require special electronics or transformers. On the whole I prefer moving magnets because I want to preserve my records and my religion allows amplifier flatness adjustment.

If you go for a high compliance moving magnet cartridge, you really need a low-mass arm to go with it. This is needed to set the natural resonant frequency below the music frequency range and above record rumbles and warps. You can't use a high mass arm without problems.

If you go for a moving coil cartridge, you really need a high mass arm to get the natural resonance frequency right. You can use a low mass arm, with added weights to correct the resonance.

Pioneer PL12D?

Back in the seventies, it was a very popular turntable and sold in huge quantities. It was seen as the first rung on the hifi ladder, but it was rather good. Belt drive and suspended with a moderately low mass arm, it was good. But people were restless and wanted to 'upgrade' from the beginner's turntable....

Nowadays, lots of these people have wistful reminiscences and fancy a PL12D again and they have pushed prices very high indeed.

Forget the PL12D. It's current prices are a South Sea Bubble. Its competitors and superiors of the day are a lot cheaper and just as good.

Me? I'd go looking for a Thorens TD125 or the less fancy TD150 if I can find a nice one. An SME arm on it would be nice too. Then I'd try to find a Shure V15 body and then spend the real money on a good modern stylus for it.

Plenty of other ways would work, but that's the way I'd go if I needed another turntable.

I would not recommend what I have used for the past 40+ years, a B&O 4000. Gorgeous looks, works beautifully, sounds great but the stylus is irreplaceable except at astronomical cost.

David

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

I'd go looking for a Thorens TD125 or the less fancy TD150 if I can find a nice one. An SME arm on it would be nice too. Then I'd try to find a Shure V15 body and then spend the real money on a good modern stylus for it.

Sound advice.

[ajgriff]

It seems that you are blessed with a number of hi-fi specialists in Chicago so my advice would be to pick a couple of your favourite records and go round seeking turntable demonstrations. Use your ears to listen to the music (particularly inner tracks) and completely ignore the sales patter. Forget about price at this stage too but cling on firmly to your wallet. Focus on cartridges and cartridge/arm combinations in particular. At the end of this process you should be better placed to make judgements about how to spend your hard earned cash.

The trouble with eBay is that it induces 'toy shop syndrome' and it is very easy to end up with a cupboard full of expensive unused toys.

Alan

[Studio263]

Is changing a Pioneer PL-990 for a PL-12D really an 'upgrade'? You'll be going from one budget Pioneer turntable to another, er, budget Pioneer turntable, except that its 20 > 30 years older and more worn out and you'll be paying a lot more for the privilege because a few hipsters have taken a shine to them.

If improved performance is your goal then any serious upgrade should involve moving up to direct drive, you can do a lot better for the same money. The Technics SL-1500 springs to mind as one obvious alternative, or an SL-150 (same thing) with your choice of arm.

[DonaldStott]

If you have the knowledge, skills and tools to refurbish/restore/upgrade a second hand turntable then I've no doubt there are lots of bargains that can be picked up.

Unfortunately many of the problem associated with second hand tables only come to light when you eventually get to play them at home. I would never buy second hand unless I could get access to the turntable and check out a few things for myself - everything from the motor, the main bearing, the belt, the tonearm bearings etc. etc. would need to be assessed. Often best to purchase a refurbished turntable from a reputable hi-fi dealer?

If you decide to go new rather than second hand then the Rega Planar 2 or Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC would be within your budget of about £400.

Lots of great background information from Radio Wrangler and good advice from ajgriff.

Let us know what you eventually choose?