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Old 13th Jun 2019, 10:17 pm   #21
paulsherwin
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

I think there is a 30 second dead air timeout on BBC national services. There's a big difference between dead air and 'atmos' though. True dead air almost always indicates a fault, while any open mic will always create atmos even if it's inaudible at typical listening levels on domestic equipment. Nothing happens during two minute's silence broadcasts (e.g. Remembrance Sunday) because of the atmos.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 12:15 am   #22
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

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There are many reasons why technical failures occur in live programming, but the underlying factors are cost cutting and deskilling (or 'multiskilling' as it's euphemistically described). When I first started working at ITN in 1981 a standard ENG crew would be 5 specialist people - director, camera, sound, lighting, presenter. That level of manning would be completely unthinkable today.
20-odd years ago, I saw a training film which featured Yorkshire Television's recruitment of ENG staff.

They were looking for someone to drive the truck, AND take care of setting the equipment up, establish a link etc.

Of the 5 applicants (if memory serves), the most likely seemed to be an ex-RAF Radar Technician, in his early-mid 40s. He didn't get the job. It went to a much younger chap who had no technical background at all.

YTV saw no problem in the lack of relevant experience. Their training would cover that side. They felt that the younger gentleman would excel in gaining access to private land when the need arose. He did seem extra-personable; the ex-RAF man was quite polite and presentable.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 7:59 am   #23
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

Here in Portsmouth there are a number of local radio stations (all on FM) which, on the whole, seem to pull off that which the BBC seems unable to do, that is to entertain the listeners. One in particular is Angel Radio, its based in Havant & just about reaches the outskirts of Portsmouth. They don't seem to have regular presenters just volunteers. From a technical standpoint the only gripe I have is the number of adverts! Sometimes running for 5-6 minutes at a time. If that is their only form of revenue then it has to be tolerated I suppose. Like others here I too have noticed the pauses & silences not only on FM but also DAB transmissions. That seems particularly prone for some reason.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 8:31 am   #24
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

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We find that the volume level varies, especially in the afternoons, sometimes it gets quieter and quieter until we can hardly here what they're saying, I think the sound level man must fall asleep sometimes.
This is one of my bugbears. Quite often when I am listening in the car, I'll go to Radio 4 and think something has gone wrong as I seem to be listening to dead air. Turning up the volume reveals someone mumbling away, seemingly sat about ten feet from the mic.
So I whack up the level to hear what he's saying, realise it's not something I want to hear and then deafen myself when I go back to Classic FM or Scala (or whatever).
I know 'talks' must be awkward for the engineering staff (are there any?) as people tend to have greatly varying speech levels and often trail off as they speak, but what use is a discussion if you only hear one word in three?
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 9:05 am   #25
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

I sometimes wonder if the BBC employ properly qualified sound recording engineers anymore.

Back in the 1960's to early 90's most broadcasts of orchestral music had suberb quality in FM stereo. Friday Night is Music Night comes to mind as good example.

The BBC used to be in the forefront of engineering developments. The BBC designed small monitor speaker the LSLS3/5A was a case in point.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 10:45 am   #26
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

The BBC have excellent sound engineers, but they are much thinner on the ground than they used to be and have less influence. I'm sure they are as irritated by technical shortcomings as people here. Many programmes are also made externally by third party companies, a charter requirement imposed by politicians.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 11:06 am   #27
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

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I sometimes wonder if the BBC employ properly qualified sound recording engineers anymore.

Back in the 1960's to early 90's most broadcasts of orchestral music had suberb quality in FM stereo. Friday Night is Music Night comes to mind as good example.
I find the Radio 3 evening concerts are generally of an excellent quality standard, with wide dynamic range and full frequency range. The quality is so much more reliable today than when OB concerts relied on a PO music circuit of uncertain quality, sometimes restricted to 8kHz bandwidth or worse.

Interestingly, back in the day of analogue tape, I used to find it easy to distinguish between a live bradcast and a recorded one, the latter generally lacking the 'sparkle' of a live transmission. Today, though, with digital recording, I can't tell the difference any more.

Or maybe my hearing is less perceptive?

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Old 14th Jun 2019, 11:49 am   #28
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

For what it is worth: I'm logged onto the BBC Sounds service as I type, listening to a Radio 3 programme transmitted yesterday - and finding no problem at all with the quality. Same also with Radio 3 VHF/FM transmissions - which is more than I can say for other Stations (commercial or otherwise).
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 11:55 am   #29
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

My dislikes of modern broadcasting are firstly the mobile phone or skype interviews where the sound can be so bad, that it sounds as though someone has introduced an audio 'phaser' into the chain.

The other is gabbling, strident and over-fast speech, particularly noticeable with some female presenters. I recall an old BBC recording which was used as an example of bad speech techniques which now would appear as a GOOD example by comparison!
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 12:55 pm   #30
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

Not particularly the BBC as such and slightly different, but their demonstration of the use of 5G when it started up a short while ago on the lunchtime news was probably the worst advert for any new service I have ever seen. I am not sure what they intended there.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 4:37 pm   #31
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

Inevitably [and appropriately] this has morphed into a discussion about Broadcast quality [which has always been a regular topic]. I still find that aspect to be more than acceptable overall but there's no quality when the signal drops out. The info supplied by those in the know ie that [less] technicians now have to rely on relatively "open" sources re eg Skype/Cell phones etc rather than more dedicated lines [as before] may explain a lot [the Beeb rarely admits to anything].

I suppose that "improvements" to the public system itself [eg 5G-when it works] may eliminate errors quite soon, as a part of the technological explosion that's taking place-largely unnoticed. This was discussed in Politics "Live" today during an interesting economics discussion in which they pointed out [as I often do] that what we used to think of as Sci Fi is now becoming a reality. I'm still wondering though, why contact between the H of Commons Lobby and Broadcasting House has problems. They are close enough for a piece of string and two tin cans!

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Last edited by AC/HL; 14th Jun 2019 at 6:03 pm. Reason: PS getting a bit too close to politics removed.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 6:10 pm   #32
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

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Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
I think there is a 30 second dead air timeout on BBC national services. There's a big difference between dead air and 'atmos' though. True dead air almost always indicates a fault, while any open mic will always create atmos even if it's inaudible at typical listening levels on domestic equipment. Nothing happens during two minute's silence broadcasts (e.g. Remembrance Sunday because of the atmos.)
Silence can be very poignant. I remember complaining on New Year's Eve in 2005 in a different "forum" that at midnight on the previous N.Y.E the gap between the third quarter chime and the first bong of Big Ben was filled with a Radio Four station ID, a special on for the occasion too "This is BBC Radio. - It's Midnight."
They did it that year too. Why? I'm not sure if they still feel the need to do it.

Ten or so years ago the 6pm Big Ben before the news was always broadcast in full, but now the news-reader starts after the first bong and the bongs are faded out at the third strike.

Not as evocative as New Year, but still...

Yes I know Big Ben is a recording, with the exception of New Year's Eve and Remembrance Day, until renovations are complete.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 6:23 pm   #33
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

The bongs are not normally a recording. The Beeb maintain equipment in the tower purely to relay the bongs. A recording is being used at present because the clock is undergoing a major refurbishment, as you say.
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Old 15th Jun 2019, 9:01 am   #34
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

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Originally Posted by lesmw0sec View Post
My dislikes of modern broadcasting are firstly the mobile phone or skype interviews where the sound can be so bad, that it sounds as though someone has introduced an audio 'phaser' into the chain.

The other is gabbling, strident and over-fast speech, particularly noticeable with some female presenters. I recall an old BBC recording which was used as an example of bad speech techniques which now would appear as a GOOD example by comparison!
I am constantly irritated by gabbling / overfast speech ( My "angry old man" effect does not help ) When the well established male presenters are speaking they are perfectly understandable.

The producers of advert's seem to ensure the speech is pretty clear as well.
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Old 15th Jun 2019, 9:40 am   #35
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

The BBC have aways valued the concept of the 'microphone voice'. I'd thought that the idea had died out, but on checking a recent announcer job advert, which happens to be for BBC Wales, I found the requirement: "Our ideal candidate will have an appropriate and versatile microphone voice..."

What's a 'microphone voice'? Back in the day, I guess that the announcer was assumed to be male, and probably had lower frequency formant characteristics that were enhanced by typical loudspeakers. Now that we have gender neutrality, I wonder how far the definition of a 'microphone voice' has evolved to include the female voice. Certainly not all suit the loudspeaker in our kitchen TV! Perhaps more work is needed to update the definition.

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Old 15th Jun 2019, 11:18 am   #36
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

I'm intrigued by this mention of dropouts. I've heard my fair share of the presenters failing to get hold of their intended interview, but I can't say I've ever experienced a Radio 3 or 4 drop out or amplitude fade.

Perhaps it's due to the strange weather in certain parts of the country, fiddling with the transmitters!
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Old 15th Jun 2019, 1:10 pm   #37
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

The weather is certainly strange UB. 70 degrees here in Sussex yesterday but 90 in Torquay [reported on PM]. Floods in Weymouth! It's BBC news programs like that, Today, 24 Hour rolling news etc that seem very prone to drop out on phone connections in particular. Any Answers [on R4 shortly] often has dffficulty in this area which is ironic given the program title Sometimes it seems a little bit too convenient but I'll go with the technical explanation. It's also a bit frustrating when a line is poor [but you can hear the content] and there is still a sudden decision to end the call. Non of this looks particularly good from from the audience point of view!

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Old 15th Jun 2019, 1:40 pm   #38
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

I suppose the march of technology means that live roving reporters and field interviews can have broadcast quality audio at the risk of sudden drop out; 'we seem to have lost the line'. When I was a lad that sort of thing was unheard of and most radio interviews sounded like they were done down the plain old reliable telephone line. We're back to the freeview vs analogue TV argument aren't we: a consistently degraded snowy picture is usually preferable to a perfect image that keeps going black or freezing just at those important times.

I'm still vexed by public phone-ins where the caller is on a dodgy mobile that keeps stuttering like a broken vocoder or has a child screaming in the background. If I were asked to appear on live national radio, I think I'd lock myself into a soundproof spare room with the landline and probably even shut the curtains.
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Old 15th Jun 2019, 3:12 pm   #39
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

Hi Gents,
Posted by Rontech
The producers of advert's seem to ensure the speech is pretty clear as well.

Possibly for the actual advert, but for the collection of various disclaimers (usually longer than the ad itself), it is an extremely rapid gabble designed not to be heard correctly.
Any ad like this I immediately blank as a (highly) possible scam !!

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Old 15th Jun 2019, 5:20 pm   #40
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Default Re: BBC "Sound"

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What's a 'microphone voice'?
Probably a voice that is fluid and not harsh, is dynamically versatile, and not sibilant (the 'S' and 'F' thing). Once over it would've been RP but that (quite correctly) doesn't matter any more.

I'd be no good. I don't need a mic, me. Just have to shout at the modulation transformer!

Either that or it's a good indisputable 'get-out' for not giving the job to someone.
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