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Old 16th Jan 2019, 2:31 pm   #61
kalee20
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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The question of colour temperature is also interesting. For me, 4000K is as cool as I feel comfortable with. I find being in a room lit with 6000k light really horrible. I've read that sufferers of SAD need 6000K+ light, but to me it's just chill and depressing.
Surely 6000K is warmer than 4000K? The hotter a black body, the bluer the light? I've always been puzzled by the reference to yellower light as 'warmer' than bluer!

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I agree that the whole CFL thing was utterly horrible. We were forced into them on the basis of energy efficiency, but I'm sure if you take the manufacturing costs, toxic materials, almost universal disposal into landfill and often very short lifespan into account, then we would have been much better sticking to incandescent until LED's came along!
I agree! I really don't like CFL's. However, it's just a case of hindsight, and backing the wrong technology. LED's were a lab curiosity for a while, then came available as indicators. It's comparactively recently that light output has been sufficient for lighting. At the time of 'going CFL' there was the hope that a succession of improvements would take place, instead, it looks as though what we ended up with 10 years ago is as good as it gets, whereas the LED people have found ways to just get better.

Fluorescents and LEDs for lighting do have one thing in common - they both rely on fluorescence (in the fluorescent lamp it's excited by UV from mercury vapour, in the white LED it's by blue light emitted from a diode structure. So I daresay that all the work that the chemists did to make better phosphors has been used by the LED people. The effort hasn't been wasted!
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 4:01 pm   #62
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
Needless to say those doing lathe work have to be very careful with their choice of lighting- i understand certain LED luminaires have caused problems there though.
Dave
Really? I know that's why floors were banned in lathe workshops but I am surprised LEDs also strobe.
Especially the cheaper ones, even if they have switch mode power supplies. Using a smaller than ideal mains smoothing capacitor was apparently deemed a good way to reduce budget (not only the cap itself, but also through reduced power dissipation everywhere else).
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 5:53 pm   #63
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

I might retrofit a flourescent tube light in my kitchen , but fit the modern led tube instead !
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 6:18 pm   #64
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

From pure curiosity, yesterday I saw one on-line outlet charging 60 per 8' tube (whilst another was charging 15- but a minimum order of 5 units)
Reading between the lines the message from the former outlet was apparent- if you want something this long and fragile, 'phone and negotiate a discount, then come and get it yourself. (..with a cardboard tube from a carpet warehouse) Fair enough really.

I can't remember the last time i shifted an 8 footer without clonking it against something- and wow, are they stronger than they look!

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Old 16th Jan 2019, 6:38 pm   #65
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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My CNC lathe has a lamp, I'm not sure what type, inside the cabinet. As the chuck comes up to speed it appears to be stationary, run backwards etc. There is no danger though as the cabinet door has an electro-mechanical interlock and cannot be opened with machine running.
Just checked it. It's a 'U' shaped fluorescent tube about a foot long. Never seen one like it before. I'd better get a spare now while hopefully they're still available.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 7:00 pm   #66
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

A lot of those expensive professional makeup lighted mirrors use the small circle tubes, so I wonder if a viable replacement is available?
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 7:12 pm   #67
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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Can I have 6 off, 6 foot twin fluorescent fittings please? High frequency ones.

-Sorry, we no longer stock those.

Oh, how about a single 5' one then?

-No sorry, haven't got any of those either!

Oh, I'm guessing you haven't got any 250W MBFU lamps then (Mercury vapour)?

-Nope: but we can order those in.

So after nearly 70 years, the fluorescent tube is now obsolete Rather sad: I've always loved the technology and was fascinated by it as a small boy and have enjoyed installing it in small factories, offices & workshops ever since.

Luckily, replacement high frequency ballasts and T8 tubes are still available, so I will be able to keep older units running for a while yet.

I can't get excited about LED technology- It just doesn't do it for me like fluorescent does!

All the best
Nick
I'm wondering if that's just at the store you went to, as I can still get the regular tubes and fittings from the usual places around here.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 9:30 pm   #68
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

A few months ago I bought a selection of GU 10 LED lamps of various beam angles and wattages for a new outside light. Those by Pro -electric flickered, those by V-Tac and Megaman did not. Interestingly, in very small print, the boxes of the V-Tac lamps warn that they should only be used for 10-12 hours daily, and that usage for 24 hours would void the respective 2 and 5 years warranties. Just.as well I will not be using them in a "Dawn to dusk" application where they would have to operate for more than 12 hours per day for around half the year. Both have a nominal 30,000 hrs life, and 5 years is more than this, but 2 years is only about half this on my rough calculations. The other makers do not mention any limits on daily use.

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Old 16th Jan 2019, 9:36 pm   #69
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

I mentioned in post #54 about the flickering effects of LED vehicle lights, as ancillary to the discussion of the demise of fluorescent tubes, and I see my post has been edited to remove this.

Did I say something wrong?
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:02 pm   #70
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

It was taking the thread off topic. The OP raised it to discuss the demise of fluorescent technology, and LED vehicle lighting is a little too far removed.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:04 pm   #71
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

Fully respecting the point that this is your playground and entitled to run it however you wish, I often feel that the moderation goes grossly over the top sometimes.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:14 pm   #72
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

It is no-ones "playground", but we do have to try to keep threads focussed. Without moderation, we end up with muddled threads covering a multitude of subjects. Any subject (within the very well understood forum rules) can be discussed, but one at a time please.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:25 pm   #73
The Philpott
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

Sylvania 'Activa' tubes were a little disappointing. More expensive than the standard article (cos of multiple phosphor layers presumably)

Claim 5,300k but it comes across as a slightly sickly light green. Less efficient as well; on the alpha efficiency scale we are used to seeing they were given a B when the other T8's had an A. I might give them another try from the SAD point of view before condemning them, but i'm not convinced.

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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:33 pm   #74
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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I mentioned in post #54 about the flickering effects of LED vehicle lights, as ancillary to the discussion of the demise of fluorescent tubes, and I see my post has been edited to remove this.

Did I say something wrong?
Oh dear, you mentioned the 'V' word (vehicle)! That's very very naughty!

Kalee20. "Surely 6000K is warmer than 4000K?". I've never thought of it that way but I sort of see where you are coming from! The warmer a black body gets, the higher frequency the radiation will be, so nearer to the 'blue' end of the spectrum.
In human terms though, we perceive warm to be at the red end of the spectrum which is where the heat from the fire is!

The Philpott. 8' tubes were discontinued many years ago but seem to still be readily available but at insane prices!
I still have a stock of them and in fact changed two last weekend in a factory. Considering how thin the glass is, they are amazingly strong- I too have whacked them while carrying them and not broken any!
I have another few to replace for another customer next week. I believe there used to be a 10 foot tube, but I've never seen one!

Sinewave. " I'm wondering if that's just at the store you went to ". This is a large electrical wholesaler to the trade where I've had an account for some years. A big chunk of the local trade will shop there, so if they are no longer stocking fluorescent, it's a fair bet that other retailers will follow suit in the near future.

Well, I've taken the plunge! I have a 5 foot LED fitting to install in the guy's tea room at the weekend. It's a 40 foot 'Portakabin' and has two other 5' fluorescents in there already. I'll be interested in how the new fitting compares!
Watch this space!

All the best
Nick
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:55 pm   #75
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Oh dear, you mentioned the 'V' word (vehicle)! That's very very naughty!
I was alluding to flickering, being part-and-parcel of the discussion, evident also on fluorescent tubes because of the lack of thermal inertia of an incandescent lamp, but mitigated by the use of high-frequency electronic ballasts (46kHz on the Philips units I've repaird).

I was trying to explain that I've only ever noticed flickering LEDs through peripheral vision, and only on ve*ic*es. This is because the v*hi*le is moving and so the dark period is excacerbated by that movement. It is obvious that if the v*h*cle was moving at a speed equating to the distance divided by lamp flickr rate, there would be a long period of total darkness. I happen to find this annoying and I suspect I'm not the only one.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:22 pm   #76
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

Sorry, I had to attend to something on the domestic front. Can we get back to fluorescent lamps please, I have a feeling that the subject isn't exhausted yet.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:23 pm   #77
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

Every discussion forum needs to have a focus, otherwise it ends up with discussions about anything which peter out into discussions about nothing. And then it starts losing readers. The Internet is a big enough place already. If you want to talk about cars, then do so in your own bit of it. Links to private blogs are allowed here, and almost certainly preferred to off-topic posts.

Back on topic: LEDs are a technology I have seen mature in my own lifetime; from dim red indicator dots in the early 1970s, progressing through the spectrum in the 80s to blue and violet by the 1990s, and getting brighter with each iteration. The colour rendering has also improved vastly since the early bluish whites.

I'm replacing my CFLs with LEDs one by one as they fail; but it's going to be a rather slower process than the original process of replacing the original tungsten filament bulbs with CFLs!
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 12:37 am   #78
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

All my CFL's are sitting in a box in the loft, wondering what the hell happened.

'the lamps in this luminaire cannot be renewed' for LED fitments is a retrograde step ecologically and i hope that the ES/BC sockets will go on and on. (Sooner or later someone will crow that they are hazardous- but if someone wants to stick their finger in a light socket perhaps there isn't much hope for them in the long term..?)

I have just found a pair of 125w tubes in the loft- perhaps i will get a suntan this year after all.
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 1:28 am   #79
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

I can certainly see CFLs disappearing from general sale soon. Even people who don't mind them are likely to have a lifetime's supply of the things in a box somewhere, and will never need to buy another new one. Quite apart from the vast quantities sent out by the energy companies, you often see bags of them put out by the roadside by people who have switched to LEDs.
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 10:02 am   #80
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Default Re: The demise of the fluorescent tube

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'the lamps in this luminaire cannot be renewed' for LED fitments is a retrograde step ecologically...'
Indeed. And the thing that governs the life of LED replacement bulbs is not the LEDs but the electolytic capacitors contained therein. The manufacturers haven't yet caught on to the fact that the lamp they claim to have an optimistic life-expectancy is only as good as its weakest component.

So why aren't LED replacements made with detachable control circuitry like the industrial specced-CFLs, conventional fluorescent tubes and other discharge lamps are / were?
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